A PC's responsibility to their Chapter

jwconvery

jwconvery

Mentor
Just a question I've been mulling around.

In even the most vehement PC/DM rivalries within table-top gaming, there is still a shared community to make the game happen. If the characters wreck the plot, kill the princess and animate her corpse for their amusment, their is still a sense of ownership of the game. They can't piss off the DM too much or he'll/she'll stop running. Furthermore if the campaign does implode, roll up some new characters, and give the DM time and you're off and running again.

In Larping if a PC destroy's the plot, the plot team has to react and deal with it. Their is no 'reset' button. You can't just bag the game and start again. This makes plot's job very difficult, they can't say "Well, you didn't stop the world from ending, everyone perms" Similarly, PC's shouldn't murder every new adventurer in town, or their chapter wouldn't grow. Yes, the PCs are breaking IG laws, but it's not that hard to get away with. Besides forensics doesn't really exist, so their is no 'crime scene' to look at. Just the memory of the victim.

So my question is: "How responsible do you feel players should be for the overall success of their chapter?" Should they curtail there stlye of play at all? Is it Plot's job to deal with them?

Obviously plot needs to run a good game, accounting for level differences, styles of play etc. But what should the PC's do, if anything? Not looking for OOG suggestions 'donate stuff, help with logistics' Should a PC's playstyle aim to help grow the chapter?

Their are no right/wrong answers just looking for opinions.

Thanks,
Joe
 
I believe that PCs have a responsibility to be genuinely extra nice out-of-game when they play bastards. The primary that my wife plays is, frankly, something of a bitch if you get on her wrong side. And I don't mean "she'll look at you funny" bitchy. I mean "will slit your throat and/or let you die at her feet bitchy". By the same token, I have a secondary that hires himself out for wetwork pretty frequently, and is utterly ruthless in getting the job done. (Ironically, my secondary's even been hired in times past to kill her primary) Both of us will, before game lays on, walk up to new players and chat them up a bit, and let them know in advance that we're about to play some occasionally and not-so-occasionally dickish characters, but we're glad to see them and hope they have a fun time, and maybe learn a bit about what brought them on. I'll typically even throw in an outright statement that they should treat me like any NPC they encounter, even though I'm not one.

There are a few other things I do along the lines of "Don't be a ****" - I refuse contracts on known low-levels and new players (under the "this is beneath me" clause), I'll stretch out contracts to perm out certain characters just because if I really wanted to, I'd probably be able to perm out most people in a single-event unless they eventually just stayed in their cabins.

But these are more in the nature of "good ideas" than "you must obey!".
 
Players can do anything they want in the world, as long as they're willing to pay the price - that is a favorite quote I used in my game.

I don't believe that PC's murdering others is easy to get away with unless Plot allows it to be easy. Since the rezzed person remembers everything, unless they are fed an amnesia potion first, it should be easy to take someone to court over it. That being said, players do need to show a little responsibility to help the game progress. I have dealt with players whose only purpose was to screw up the other PC's but once the others got over the whole 'can't kill a fellow PC' hurdle, that tended to smooth out the problem.
 
I feel my character has very little responsibility to the chapter. I am all for a certain amount of reverse metagaming, like letting a new person slide on improperly addressing a high ranking noble or not attacking a someone of much lower power level than me. I also don't mind bending character, slightly, to help get a plot moving but beyond that it's plots job to adapt. I am all for helping OOG but once we lay on it hurts immersion to break character too much.

I as a player have a responsibility to put out as much as I expect to gain. Alliance is my favorite hobby next to playing rock music, therefore I feel I should do everything in my power to make the chapter better. Hype the game to anyone I think would be interested, bring gaggles of new people and encourage new players to continue playing. I only have one character and I would call him a "good-guy" if I had to classify him however if presented with certain situations would be a ruthless psycho, it has just never come up.

OOG I would make a point to talk to a PC if I ever was in a situation were my character had to hurt or kill them. That was something JP's wife taught me. A year ago I was one of those new people she distinguished herself from her character to. That made being new a lot easier when dealing with a "bastard" character (as JP so elegently put it :D ). Being nice to new people, especially those who weren't brought by someone playing with them, is REALLY IMPORTANT to character retention. I showed up with another new person not knowing anyone. Had everyone been stand-offish I never would have returned. Sometimes players forget they have a decade of bonding with the other players and it's hard for new players to break into a well established social circle. I especially have a hard time with people when I am not sure if they are kidding about something or not OOG.

If one character is actively assassinating plot then I feel the other players and NPCs would take care of that problem. Going out of your way to break plot isn't something I have ever seen but I'd like to think that it wouldn't be hard to counter, especial if the person was just doing it to be a jerk.
 
The way we describe our game in the rulebook and stuff tells me players should be able to screw over the plot for a weekend - an individual player is supposed to be able to have a huge impact on the game (for good or evil).
 
I agree with 'Don't be a ****' and if you are one IG, then explaining yourself to new people OOG is very nice.

So far the consensus is that a PC will play their guy, and plot can just deal with it. But what happens when you get an entire town or chapter, that plays similarly. Everyone has a group, and the IG community is very xenophobic. It's how the players want to play, so obviously the plot supports it. Well then you get a new player into the Chapter with no ties at all. Should the players change their style to welcome a new larper? Or should the plot team try really hard to get the lone player involved? which might men less 'plot-time' for the existing core group?

-Joe
 
jwconvery said:
I agree with 'Don't be a ****' and if you are one IG, then explaining yourself to new people OOG is very nice.

So far the consensus is that a PC will play their guy, and plot can just deal with it. But what happens when you get an entire town or chapter, that plays similarly. Everyone has a group, and the IG community is very xenophobic. It's how the players want to play, so obviously the plot supports it. Well then you get a new player into the Chapter with no ties at all. Should the players change their style to welcome a new larper? Or should the plot team try really hard to get the lone player involved? which might men less 'plot-time' for the existing core group?

-Joe
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Well, then we have a new player that either forces themselves in, goes and NPCs, or has a bad first impression. Not really a best-foot-forward situation. Although given the reaction to most NPCs I see, if a new player wasn't obviously a PC, they'd be dead on the ground before other players realized they weren't a standard NPC after getting a stack of tags from 'I Search You.'


Frankly, I feel the responsibility for making a good game lies with all of us. The staff is there to provide impartial arbitration of disputes and portray the people and events that interact with our characters. As players, our overriding responsibility is to play a clean, fair game and interact with the world and our fellow players in ways that will add to the illusion of a shared fantasy world. Big words, I know, but it breaks down easily to what is becoming my motto. Play Nice.

Show up. Be in-character as often as possible. Do what your character would do in each situation, not what provides the greatest OOG advantage. Apply a bit of benevolent metagaming if necessary to allow everyone to have their fun. Be respectful of the spotlight, and don't rob others of their cool moments. Roleplay with everything and everyone you meet as your character. Remember we're all here to have fun, and keep the IG aggression and personal feuds in game. Fight like you would like others to fight you.

And most important for higher-level PC's dealing with new players : Don't roll the newbie mods just because you can. Nothing is more frustrating for someone who is too low-build to be effective on most of what is going on in a weekend than to see a high-level character waltz through everything scaled for the lowbies and run off with the loot. Don't Be That Guy.
 
I hold Rule Number One: Always have fun here.

This includes not ruining other people's fun. We play evil characters. We should never be evil players towards each other.

Which has led to comments like: "Dude, sorry. But I'm going to be tearing off your hands, then your feet, and having the ghouls eat your tongue now. If you're gonna crawl back to town, do most of it OOG cause I'm not trying to make you crawl a half mile on your stumps in the deep dark woods." :)
 
I think there's a distinction we need to make between responsibility to the chapter and to other players. I agree that higher level guys need to make sure lower level guys enjoy the game.

However I still think all players have a right to screw plot over in any way their characters want. Steal the artifact plot needs? No problem. Assassinate the King? No problem.
 
James Trotta said:
I think there's a distinction we need to make between responsibility to the chapter and to other players. I agree that higher level guys need to make sure lower level guys enjoy the game.

However I still think all players have a right to screw plot over in any way their characters want. Steal the artifact plot needs? No problem. Assassinate the King? No problem.
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Funny, I feel just the opposite. Although I do not believe higher level people should intentionally cause trouble for the lower levels I also don't believe there is anything saying they need to go out of their way to have them enjoy themselves. A player is there to have fun. Plot is there to entertain the players. It isn't another player's responsibility to entertain other players.

Meanwhile, unless your character has a background of being a dirt bag, intentionally going out of your way to screw plot over becomes more of screwing over other people. Perfect example is how much people hate ninja looters.
 
markusdark said:
Funny, I feel just the opposite. Although I do not believe higher level people should intentionally cause trouble for the lower levels I also don't believe there is anything saying they need to go out of their way to have them enjoy themselves. A player is there to have fun. Plot is there to entertain the players. It isn't another player's responsibility to entertain other players.

Meanwhile, unless your character has a background of being a dirt bag, intentionally going out of your way to screw plot over becomes more of screwing over other people. Perfect example is how much people hate ninja looters.
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I'd say that higher level players -benefit- from playing with lower level players- because that usually results in more fun things happening. It's not their responsibility, though.

And I have no problem with people wreaking havoc with a plot- as long as it makes sense beyond OOG wanting to destroy a game, AND you take the IG cost of doing so.

Take *ahem* a certain other game, right after the big split.

Ashbury had been taken over by the Sessua(sp) and was known as ET-13. PC's had to have their identification papers, laws were harsh, and so on. Most of the town went on a big mod, but a few stayed behind- One PC who wasn't feeling well and her husband, both in-game.

An NPC sent out by Plot stuck posters urging rebellion,sedition, and uprisings against their new masters, untouched and unseen by anyone as he walked away- leaving the two PC's the only people who saw it in-game. The husband, who already had "bears watching" stamped liberally all over his ID papers proceeded to thoroughly remove each and every poster- and burn them. After all, it was only him and his sick wife there when the Sessua came back with the rest of the town- who were they gonna blame?

The NPC's when they came back rolled with it. The guy (can you guess who?) running the game flipped out, accusing the two PC's of cheating and worse...and that would be the last NERO event I'd ever attend. :)

(By comparison, Mike, Heidi and company were delightful and loved the cookies when we came for the first ALLIANCE Ashbury weekend.)

A player's responsibility to a chapter is to play by the rules and treat both the site and it's participants with respect. The rest is up to the player in question.
 
I don't see ninja looters as screwing plot at all. Maybe it screws other players but not too badly. When I say help new players I mean not killing the goblins sent out for them and not rolling 15 build guys for their starting money.

I do agree that you don't try OOG to screw over plot but our rulebook encourages players to interact with plot as their character would - even if you're evil and want to steal the rod that will save the weekend or whatever.
markusdark said:
Funny, I feel just the opposite. Although I do not believe higher level people should intentionally cause trouble for the lower levels I also don't believe there is anything saying they need to go out of their way to have them enjoy themselves. A player is there to have fun. Plot is there to entertain the players. It isn't another player's responsibility to entertain other players.

Meanwhile, unless your character has a background of being a dirt bag, intentionally going out of your way to screw plot over becomes more of screwing over other people. Perfect example is how much people hate ninja looters.
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In an in game sense, I agree. OOG? Lowbie players who don't have fun, don't come back, and those high level folks are going to get awful tired of playing by themselves.

markusdark said:
James Trotta said:
I think there's a distinction we need to make between responsibility to the chapter and to other players. I agree that higher level guys need to make sure lower level guys enjoy the game.

However I still think all players have a right to screw plot over in any way their characters want. Steal the artifact plot needs? No problem. Assassinate the King? No problem.
Click to expand...

Funny, I feel just the opposite. Although I do not believe higher level people should intentionally cause trouble for the lower levels I also don't believe there is anything saying they need to go out of their way to have them enjoy themselves. A player is there to have fun. Plot is there to entertain the players. It isn't another player's responsibility to entertain other players.

Meanwhile, unless your character has a background of being a dirt bag, intentionally going out of your way to screw plot over becomes more of screwing over other people. Perfect example is how much people hate ninja looters.
Click to expand...
 
I just came back from another LARP and ran into someone I hadn't seen in almost 2 years. I, of course, asked her how was she enjoying the game. She said she wasn't, and can't believe she wasted the $ for it> I asked her why and she said that it was hard to care about anyone in the game _ that she really didn"t care about anythingI

When I asked her what her character did care about, she said she didn't know, she just made the character. So I responded with "Well then, your character is meeting her goals."

If a player is expecting plot to come up with what their character's motivations are, then they're doing it wrong.
 
markusdark said:
I just came back from another LARP and ran into someone I hadn't seen in almost 2 years. I, of course, asked her how was she enjoying the game. She said she wasn't, and can't believe she wasted the $ for it> I asked her why and she said that it was hard to care about anyone in the game _ that she really didn"t care about anythingI

When I asked her what her character did care about, she said she didn't know, she just made the character. So I responded with "Well then, your character is meeting her goals."

If a player is expecting plot to come up with what their character's motivations are, then they're doing it wrong.
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I don't see that as being entirely true. I believe a certain amount of why people spend money is to be entertained by people who have taken the time between events to prepare their best effort for something that will challenge, include and inspire their players, otherwise you could do just as well meeting up with friends in someone's backyard or a park and taking turns being goblins and vampires. As players, you pay for the system to track your build and for your plot team to do their best to make the story feel motivating. If a plot person or team consistently ran events about a flood of saboteurs from a tribe of kobolds being out at night and waylaying people and I didn't care about the kobolds and didn't want to lose my stuff for something I didn't care about I would sit in a ward while the waylayers were around and stop attending their events. That's not my fault for being unmotivated, it is their fault for being boring. If I encountered a plot about a young farmer who discovers he is the key to a prophecy of restoring a long line of earth templars to their place as protectors of freedom and peace in the kingdom and then finds out that his father was a prominent templar who was seduced by the power of necromancy and is now the chief warlord in the empire that replaced the templars I would walk off site and go home. That's not my fault for being unwilling to play along, that's plot's fault for being unoriginal and plagiaristic (and unforgivably OOG with the references).

That said, I do agree that people who show up to games and play tavern patron 3 and then whine about it usually need to try harder (or at all). I also feel, however, that plot needs to meet players half way: people need to be willing to get off their chairs and benches and the chapter needs to provide them with reasons to do so.
 
But if you don't inform plot about what you would enjoy doing, I would say the onus is more on the player than on plot. Submit a background, inform them between games what you'd like to do. If after some time they're still not producing anything you are enjoying, then I'd say let them know via your entrance fee.

I think what I meant to say was that the player gave no sort of inclination to plot about what she would like to do at the game nor really researched what was happening in the game to find a hook.
 
If a large percentage of the players are complaining that they're bored, then yeah, it's probably the fault of the game. But if one or two players are the only ones complaining, then it's probably those particular players...
 
markusdark said:
But if you don't inform plot about what you would enjoy doing, I would say the onus is more on the player than on plot. Submit a background, inform them between games what you'd like to do. If after some time they're still not producing anything you are enjoying, then I'd say let them know via your entrance fee.

I think what I meant to say was that the player gave no sort of inclination to plot about what she would like to do at the game nor really researched what was happening in the game to find a hook.
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Yeah, I didn't actually doubt that that was what you meant, I'm just argumentative by nature and get rankled by blanket statements (except my own, because I know that I'm right). Passive aggression is a ridiculous waste of everybody's time at best, and engaging in it really only proves that the mouse of fun often falls victim to a single sourpuss.
 
¡haha! that article was inspired! thank you for posting it. methinks my favorite was:
Let me make a suggestion: if you (who as we already know made this character on purpose and chose this concept from all others that you could have played) are playing a character who exists in what is probably a fantastic world of some sort (because most games are set in worlds that are more interesting than our own) cannot think of one thing for your character to do without having a storyteller hold your hand, then you suck. Suck suck suck. As a person, as a gamer, and as a thinking creature.
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¡fantastic!
 
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