A sincere request

[jpariury]

When I was originally phone called with rumours about what I'm going to discuss, I was hoping that this wouldn't be necessary, although I had a back-up email drafted and saved in my gmail account.

At this point, I don't know what was said to whom, or if its even a moot point at this stage, however, I feel the need to speak up publically on the matter of Aeris' trial. My hope is that this matter can be discussed civily on this board such that the thread itself is not shut down. I've been debating making this private discussion versus public, and I have found through modding and admining a few boards in my time, that rather than having a bunch of things said and relayed second- or third-hand, it's better just to put things out in the open where it can be discussed and people held accountable to exactly what they say and have that be compared against their actions directly. (Any conversation that involves "Well, I heard..." really, really sucks.)

#1 - There seems to be some confusion on how a variety of NPCs and PCs could have possibly found out about the matter of the Earth Guild theft. The easiest answer would be that within a day or two of the event, I, as Gregor, made specific members of the town hierarchy aware of every niggling detail I was aware of in-game surrounding the event, including my suspicions of who wrote the portion of the note that was on the reverse of the riddle itself. Yes, that includes that Gregor dimed on Aeris' involvement in the whole affair, as well as his own. All this happened exactly three days after the February event, which gives plenty of time for taletelling and expansion on what was said by this most recent event. If anyone would like to see the email, request it of me, and I will happily send it along.

#2 - Consider, for one moment, that in the very least, there are some people at least occasionally as clever as you perceive yourself to be.

#3 - Also consider that other characters you might think are your boon companions or loyal minions, may, in fact, have periods of judgement and misjudgement in which they will either let things slip, or to which they will, themselves, confess to any number of crimes. They may do these things out of peer pressure, fear/survival instinct, or some unique sense of morality. They are characters, and will act as is appropriate to what the player wants to have them experience.

 

[Balryn]

I don't know why it wouldn't be public... but I said that the only real evidence was in fact the true criminal key-pigeon of who performs the crime. I knew there was a high chance of Gregor or Aeris spilling the beans the whole time especially after the breakdown. I even broke down the list of reasonable things as Gregor having turned himself in since I knew you were playing a secondary for a while and had proven himself untrustworthy to the family.

I did however chime up that someone said Aeris's handwriting was ID'ed by unknown means and I found it funny because I wrote the stuff after Jaq couldn't get my transcription straight. I wanted to make sure that plot hadn't mucked up a crime/trial by introducing evidence that wasn't supposed to be there.

I also have no idea who overheard Mykell take credit for it and chalk it up to IG falsification against Mykell, but that is pretty standard against Mykell and I was even telling people Mykell was the root of all evil. (it is however funny, because poor Mykell didn't do any of it... poor guy, sorry Daryl!)

In any case, I just asked for clarification of the ID point of Aeris's handwriting. I'm all good for getting blamed for everything and the world. I like playing Balryn far darker anyhow. People seem to think I/Barry wanted balryn to remain uncaught, which in fact I wanted him not to so that he can play his more traditional character when he comes back.

Since we got a thread though, I would like to *never* again see anyone's handwriting ID'ed or anything similiar. Forensics is not a game skill in NERO. Next I'll expect people to start examining hairs at a crime. NERO doesn't have crime skills for a reason and it's because it takes the "live" part out of it and relays it to OOGness. *I would like to see rules submittals for IG skills other than straight combat ones it now has. In previous editions I had some of them, but they have long been gone. But by being in the rules, it makes everyone have access to the same effects and counter effects.

 

[Seattle_Jim]

Since we got a thread though, I would like to *never* again see anyone's handwriting ID'ed or anything similiar. Forensics is not a game skill in NERO. Next I'll expect people to start examining hairs at a crime. NERO doesn't have crime skills for a reason and it's because it takes the "live" part out of it and relays it to OOGness. *I would like to see rules submittals for IG skills other than straight combat ones it now has. In previous editions I had some of them, but they have long been gone. But by being in the rules, it makes everyone have access to the same effects and counter effects.

No sort of modern forensics was used. It was done as "does this look the same?" There is nothing wrong with that. There was no NPC who did handwriting analysis. No NPC ever ID'ed anything about the handwriting. If PCs want to hold two documents next to each other and compare them and make a decision, I am not going to stop them. If someone finds a white hair in their cabin after they were rogued, they can blame all the dark elves they wish. I do not agree that any of this takes the "live" part out of it and I do say it supports the "role-playing" part of it.

 

[jpariury]

I wanted to make sure that plot hadn't mucked up a crime/trial by introducing evidence that wasn't supposed to be there.

Why attribute to staff malice what can be easily explained away as character assumption and player participation?

I would like to *never* again see anyone's handwriting ID'ed or anything similiar.

Why not? There are no rules for having players make assumptions and/or comparing pieces of writing. On the contrary, I would like to suggest that we no longer allow PCs to use computer printouts for leaving notes on site, since it removes the "live" aspect of obtaining writings, etc. There is a world of difference between ID'ing by someone going to plot for answers beyond plot's control (for instance, someone with OC: Tracker going to plot to find out where Whisper hid a bag of loot) versus characters looking at a piece of writing and going "Yep, that's Aeris' writing!"

Next I'll expect people to start examining hairs at a crime.

I think Jim pretty much nailed that one on the head. Why not commit a crime, then leave some white hairs stuck in a door jam or whatnot to pin a crime on the dark elves? See number 2 above. (Although, now I have this urge to leave white hairs everywhere I go next event)

 

[Kauss]

You know, everyone is playing nice, but I dont want to soo..

1st off, handwritting comparison was brought into game some time ago, to the extent that some people have IG gotten collections of peoples writting IG to compare IG. In part this was done becouse we have had a public forgory or two, where people were told things like "well the handwritting matches". If you want to be able to forge people's handwritting, then you need to allow this sort of thing for everyone, not just people playing IG bad jokes (I presume everyone knows what I am talking about). And as some people said, if I IG compare 2 signitures, this isnt US law, this is fantasy law, I just have to use it as a good argument.

2nd the night of the theft, after the combat, ideas were made, handwritting looked into, questions asked, and guesses made. Out of all the people who could have done it, or been involved, lists were come up with and suggestions were made. I am not saying "poof" we knew who it was, but D*mn there were a lot of other odd thigns that made the pool smaller. It was very clear early on that some PCs knew more then they were telling, it was just hard to tell who exactly did what, but thats a process of elimination, a process of watching later actions (for example, gregor packing up and leaving didnt look good for him) and of course crafting the story.

3rd you did not do such a clean and clear thing as you think. All that time there are groups who placed the gypsys in areas other than where they were "expected" to be. That was a clear bloody sign that started most of the work. When people heard "You mean they never went to take care of..." or "what were they doing over there when they should have been..." Still not evidence, but more than enuf to make people start with one group over another.

or in short, it wasnt as good a plan as you might think. Now on to more personal notes.

You were insulting to plot to suggest that they may have tampered with things or in some other way gotten directly invlved. PCs started the ball rolling and collected info. All plot did was have the ranking people around to deal with the laws and such. They weighed the spoken evidence and left most of the debate/desision to a jury, all made of PCs. In that jury, tons and tons if information about the matter (some relating, some not) was pulled out, all based on IG PC observations. About half heard things, seen events, placement, motive, ect.

 

[Polare]

Without getting too much into it, I can guarantee that there was other IG knowledge which pointed to Aeris and Balryn. The handwriting was far from necessary to figure it out.

-Bryan

 

[Seattle_Dave]

Barry -
PC's gave the evidence, brought the charges, confessed the crimes, defended the accused, sat on the jury, gave the verdict (including recomended punishment), foiled a rescue attempt (staged by plot, no less), and carried out the execution. Now you tell me where it was plot who engineered this?

As things were brought forward we made sure that each and every piece being brought to us was gained IG and did not contain information received ooc. We as plot did our best to simply facilitate and make sure the rules were being followed.

Frankly? It really seems to me that you tried a little PVP and are crying foul now that the PVP is flowing the other way.

 

[Slice]

Hey guys, keep an eye on the fact that Barry himself just said his issue was not that he belived people could not figure out who did it, but was just worried that Staff had interfered with the ID of the handwritting on the riddle. Just so you know Barry you are not the only one who believes oog that they wrote the note on the back. If I wrote a note ig as Slice and someone who knows Slice very well came up to me oog and said do I recognize this as your handwritting, it is up to me to say yes, no, or bugger off. So if this other person truly beleives they wrote the note, and said yes this could explain your partial confusion, especially if you decided to rewrite the back and sent out the one you wrote instead and the other player did not know that. (Although I believe in this case the IDing of the handwritting did not include anything but writing samples certain characters had.) Further no matter what occured I find it both uncalled for and rude to throw accusations of cheating on staffs part without simply calling up the owner of the chapter and asking them about the situation.

On a second note I will agree I do not believe forensics should be a craftsmen other skill (as I believe that is how you ment what you said, although please correct me if I am wrong) and no characters as far as I am aware, posses such a skill. I do on the other hand believe that a character can pull up handwritting samples and make a comparison. For example there is a character ig that has an entire book hand written by Slice. If a note were to come into game that people belived may have been written by Slice I believe it is totally fair of them to compare the two and make assumptions from it. It only becomes unfair if instead they walk up to plot and say " I have this book of slice's handwritting, is this note in her handwritting?" and plot says yes or no. Something I see no reason to assume plot did. In the situation of the riddle I know exactly what they would do in this kind of situation as I went up to staff with the riddle and asked if I could get a scent off it. They told me no, it was muddled and could get no leads.

On a similar note know that had the actual riddle been hand written I am almost positive both Holly and Slice could have ID'd the handwritting of the person who actually wrote it in a heart beat. The fact that it was typed I felt was decieving oog and ig and I agree with the request that letters, notes, books, etc. written by characters need to be handwritten. This is not the first time I have seen this occur, I have seen it occur dozens of times, I can even recall doing it once myself, so know I am not pointing a solitary finger, but now that I have seen the problems that have arisen from it I am requesting it no longer occur, and even request going as far as making it a chapter wide rule, if not an alliance wide rule.

Holly

 

[Kauss]

Just relating to this
"On a similar note know that had the actual riddle been hand written I am almost positive both Holly and Slice could have ID'd the handwritting of the person who actually wrote it in a heart beat. The fact that it was typed I felt was decieving oog and ig and I agree with the request that letters, notes, books, etc. written by characters need to be handwritten. This is not the first time I have seen this occur, I have seen it occur dozens of times, I can even recall doing it once myself, so know I am not pointing a solitary finger, but now that I have seen the problems that have arisen from it I am requesting it no longer occur, and even request going as far as making it a chapter wide rule, if not an alliance wide rule. "
Becouse of this, most people IG who want to type things out have to use a scribe IG. Now I dont know if anyone has ever tryed to track things by taking a letter and asking plot/local scribes if they have written it, but I know that I take that into account when I write things IG . Now if you saying that no one should be able to use scribes and always has to write things in handwritting, I have to object. Kauss is in game 24/7, I however am not. Depending on what I write, it can take to bloody long, and to be honest, if I want to make IG 10 copys of something (like a contract) I would IG get a scribe to do my dirty work.

 

[Kauss]

to expand on a few points.

" I even broke down the list of reasonable things as Gregor having turned himself in since I knew you were playing a secondary for a while and had proven himself untrustworthy to the family."
Just for the record, playing a secondary is an OOC bit of info. Hopefully what you ment was, Gregor was supposed to be out of town for a bit.



"I also have no idea who overheard Mykell take credit for it and chalk it up to IG falsification against Mykell, but that is pretty standard against Mykell and I was even telling people Mykell was the root of all evil. (it is however funny, because poor Mykell didn't do any of it... poor guy, sorry Daryl!) "
Actally in this case mykell is the thug of all evil. If you want to know more learn IG, but just incase that doesnt happen, mykell was accused of being scarry.. intimidating..a gypsy.. and knowing what was going on. I dont think anyone falsly leveled anything on him this time.

"In any case, I just asked for clarification of the ID point of Aeris's handwriting. I'm all good for getting blamed for everything and the world. I like playing Balryn far darker anyhow. People seem to think I/Barry wanted balryn to remain uncaught, which in fact I wanted him not to so that he can play his more traditional character when he comes back. "

No what some people thought was (I just edited this, if staff wants to know what I was about to say ask me, it was a little off). People presumed Balryn never wanted to get caught. I mean to be honest, Does/can balryn even know what happend? (trial and all) But thats for another thread.

"Since we got a thread though, I would like to *never* again see anyone's handwriting ID'ed or anything similiar. Forensics is not a game skill in NERO. Next I'll expect people to start examining hairs at a crime. NERO doesn't have crime skills for a reason and it's because it takes the "live" part out of it and relays it to OOGness. *I would like to see rules submittals for IG skills other than straight combat ones it now has. In previous editions I had some of them, but they have long been gone. But by being in the rules, it makes everyone have access to the same effects and counter effects."

I think this has been gone over but, let me redo it. It was an eyeball comparison. Tho there is no skill for it, it was treated just like being able to tell blue from green from red. I can grab any peice of paper IG with writting on it and say its someones handwritting. If I have something to compare it to, others can look, and agree/disagree. Since there is no skill on it, there is no yes or no answer on if it is or isnt. However I can also get 3 guys to all agree with me for whatever reason and lie about it as well, since there is no "force the truth" power IG.

 

[Slice]

I am saying that if a pc is writting something, it should be handwritten. If a scribe is writting it for you I have no problem with it being typed, but then I feel it goes to the relm of plot dispersed, and questions directed to plot about it, such as scent, handwritting and that sort are fair game for plot to answer. They still dont have to of course, but it is then in there territory to do so. What I feel is not ok is plot giving out information about pc written notes (something they did not do as far as I can see) or pc's hiding behind the disguise of a computer print out (something I dont believe was done with that intent in this case). Either way though they are both things I personally would like to not see in the future.

 

[jpariury]

If you're using print outs that were done by "scribes", then you'd be opening yourself up for allowing plot to have the NPC scribe betray you. The better policy is to simply require that players write out everything that they intend to write.

 

[Kauss]

I am saying that if a pc is writting something, it should be handwritten. If a scribe is writting it for you I have no problem with it being typed, but then I feel it goes to the relm of plot dispersed, and questions directed to plot about it, such as scent, handwritting and that sort are fair game for plot to answer. They still dont have to of course, but it is then in there territory to do so. What I feel is not ok is plot giving out information about pc written notes (something they did not do as far as I can see) or pc's hiding behind the disguise of a computer print out (something I dont believe was done with that intent in this case). Either way though they are both things I personally would like to not see in the future.

"If you're using print outs that were done by "scribes", then you'd be opening yourself up for allowing plot to have the NPC scribe betray you. The better policy is to simply require that players write out everything that they intend to write."

Both are you are saying what I am saying. If you write it yourself its best, but if you have a scribe do it plot can have that plot contacted IG. I would hate a "policy" forcing me to hand write it all, and I have no problem that a scribe can be used against me IG. Keep in mind JP that the reason I (and some others) use scribes IG is becouse we have IG signs and contracts and price lists and such. Not really things I worry about.

Also everyone keep in mind you can use IG PC scribes as well. I know rissa (the charicter joyce plays) is in IG caligripher, and will scribe things IG for a price (well when she played) sara's new charicter may do that as well, since she is an IG PC scribe.

 

[Yasmay Laetshi]

The problem I see with handwritten notes is that a lot of secondary and primary characters are going to get confused, since they would have very similar handwriting. If Yasmay had written the note, Jenali could very well have been accused, if for no other reason than that people are putting too much emphasis on identifying the hand. Maybe thats a pretty obscure point in this case, since everyone confessed anyway, but I don't see that any kind of chapter-wide policy can be implimented while people are using the same handwritting for two completely different characters. That isn't to say that IG people can't accuse whomever they please based on handwritting, hair, or the direction of the wind. Mistakes, lucky guesses, and injustice all make for very interesting roll-play so long as people don't feel as though they got sold out in an out-of-game way.

 

[Seattle_Jim]

Mistakes, lucky guesses, and injustice all make for very interesting roll-play so long as people don't feel as though they got sold out in an out-of-game way.

And we endeavored to make sure that nobody did and I think everything went fine, despite all of the intentional out of game confusion. If people still feel that things were not handled correctly either speak up here or give a staff member a shout.

 

[Mykell]

I also have no idea who overheard Mykell take credit for it and chalk it up to IG falsification against Mykell, but that is pretty standard against Mykell and I was even telling people Mykell was the root of all evil. (it is however funny, because poor Mykell didn't do any of it... poor guy, sorry Daryl!)

Just a note.. Mykell never said anything ingame about it. The only time I said anything was OOG to OOG people.

-Daryl

 

[Anonymous]

sara's new charicter may do that as well, since she is an IG PC scribe.

Ashlan will, indeed, scribe things for people, and she does have OCS: scribe. And it will be very nifty once I have a calligraphy and wax seal set to do so with.

This problem, with print outs and that nonsense, is why I started putting a purple mark with Diera's personal symbol in white on things I typed up. Because I typed something up and someone else took it down, took it to somewhere and basically retyped the whole thing to make it look like a forgery and Diera had to eat the 3 gold for it. Lame.

Frankly, *I* was the one who analysed the handwriting. I wrote some notes down. I compared it to samples I had. Our characters made a decision about who's handwriting it was. We launched from there. Everything, from finding the note to the trial, was kept to IG evidence, supposition, and accusation.

And both forgery and the "technique" I used have been around for millenia. As long as there have been written documents, in fact.

And out of all this, in a sad, vengeful way, I'm terribly amused.

~Sarah

 

[jpariury]

I suppose that what I find disappointingly ironic is that when the theft was done, the victims took everything In-Game, including the theft itself, and trusted plot and the players that nothing was cheesed, cheated, or fabricated, but when the tables were turned, the first thing I heard after the event were fears of metagaming, cheating, and the like. And that is the part that I felt necessitated starting this thread to begin with.

 

[Kauss]

I also have no idea who overheard Mykell take credit for it and chalk it up to IG falsification against Mykell, but that is pretty standard against Mykell and I was even telling people Mykell was the root of all evil. (it is however funny, because poor Mykell didn't do any of it... poor guy, sorry Daryl!)

Just a note.. Mykell never said anything ingame about it. The only time I said anything was OOG to OOG people.

-Daryl

The question I have is, why did you tell people oog? I presume its not people in the know already, or telling staff oog so they knew more.
Also when you told oog people oog, was game on or off, were you in an IG area and were you clearly oog? I ask for the obvious reasons.

 

[Nicholai Voyani]

I am new here but I feel I must make a statement....... I understand about wanting things to be hand written. That seems COMPLETELY fair to me, and only logical. I ALSO understand how a merchant(such as myself) might need several copies, and is going to pay either an IG, or an OOG scribe to make those copies for me.


I completely agree with the fact that if an OOG scribe is used, plot should be willing to answer questions about the scribe...such as who hired them etc. etc.

I have another couple of things.....I have been LARPing since 1996....It is in my opinion and my experience that people who have "perfect" plans are NEVER willing to go quietly when those plans go awry and they get caught, it is simple. When they are doing the deed there is NO thought of consequences.....but when they realize that their plan WAS flawed and that it is time to pay the piper....well that is another story......

I would also like to point out something, which I myself practice, that I think would be able to fix a couple of these things if people were willing to put forth a miniscule amount of effort to make it more "real"

When you send someone a PM'd letter from the Dreamscape....write it out in that character's hand. That way at the next event or game day you can give it to them...because in all actuality they WOULD have a copy of it.....it usually takes only a few moments to do. IF THEY GET RID OF IT, IT IS ON THEM.

The problem I see with handwritten notes is that a lot of secondary and primary characters are going to get confused, since they would have very similar handwriting. If Yasmay had written the note, Jenali could very well have been accused, if for no other reason than that people are putting too much emphasis on identifying the hand.

The other thing that is extremely easy to do is to make small changes to the WAY you write with each individual character you play. I for one if I am examining a bit of handwriting do not just look at "a curve here and a line crossed there" I look at grammer spelling and word usage......example:

John the Pirate writes :"You might want to be looking over your shoulder"

John the Pirate is played my Joe whose secondary character is a diplomat, and he writes it like this(even if it was in the EXACT SAME writing) "You may want to look over your shoulder"

simple changes in the style and flow of how you write can EASILY change which character a note came from


These are just my opinions...I could be wrong......




God I love Dennis Miller