Seattle_Jim
Elite
I am starting a new thread to discuss the handwritten letter issue, since this is not what this thread is orignally about.
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A sincere request
- Thread starter jpariury
- Start date
I think this is a key example that board messages don't relay intent properly and that individuals read into them what they want to. Not exactly sure why this was brought up on the board because it was already answered mostly, but people really need to stop reading negativity into online posts because it is really detrimental to the subject. This was entirely a private inquiry to make sure it was done legitly and I was perfectly fine with it, if people want to discuss it further I'm always willing to examine things-
I never said plot had any malice towards the situation- it was however a significant possibility that they didn't have the correct information to act on. I *NEVER* said they were cheating. I said that I wanted to make sure plot hadn't mucked something up. There's no malice saying that plot can make an accidental call! Plot/Rules/PCs/NPCs/Flying Monkeys muck things up all the time in games. It's the entire reason I've seen dozens of rules and plot adjudications before. Even after being told that JP didn't do something as Gregor (by someone uninvolved) I asked someone to call him and confirm, because the #1 thing on my list was Gregor doing what he did (with a good amount weighed in for it after Monday's arguement at the previous game). While I waited for a response I wrote Dave & Jim and they wrote a completely proper response to my inquiry and I was completely good with it. There isn't anything wrong with confirming it was all done right and asking questions. I ask the same questions when I hear a rules call and want more information, I check and ask questions. Boy do people really like throwing around the cheating stuff... pretty much everyone is bashing on me for asking questions (in private, but brought up on the board by JP) because I wanted to make sure that my after actions IG did not go down a snowball path if indeed plot had taken the wrong stuff IG (which has happened plenty of times before in many chapters, so I'm not throwing out anything new). I wrote my inquiry to plot with some other inquiries regarding the world and said "thanks for the info".
If people want to read some malice into my inquiry or say that I'm mad about someone playing a character... feel free. Getting betrayed IG was pretty much what I expected OOG. For some of you who have been playing so long I thought you would realize that this isn't the first time someone has turned on a PC.
As far as ID'ing stuff, I was originally told plot did do it and that is why I asked some questions. Plot was pretty good with the situation at the last event and I thought it sounded off and wanted to know some details. Dave/Jim explained how it happened and gave a brief breakdown and I was good with it. I wasn't at the game and was asking strictly OOG because I would rather know that everything happened properly rather than have any doubts from what other people relayed to me, which indicated that it didn't happen the right way and raised questions that I asked (and were then answered by staff).
If we want to committ red herring plots then I'm fine with it, I've done a few in my years and regardless of how handwriting is pulled it doesn't make a bit of difference. The reality of the game system is that it lacks the ability to actually validate evidence by introducing certain elements and then failing to give a system to validate or invalidate information. NERO once had some forgery skills which I liked and had some things like physical identify in the ritual system- but they are now just points in craftsman other and don't exist. If players/characters want to examine things and form an idea that's great... but plot doing would break the spirit of the system by introducing skills that are not in the game (which is why I asked some questions). In the white hair example, there isn't anyway in the game to possess a skill to identify a "dark elf" hair over an "old dwarf" hair, so the reality of the game world is that forensics and most of the things we take for granted don't exist in NERO. NERO has unfortunately stripped away most of the RP type skills it has and kept only the the combat side of the rules... I would love to see some proposals for some more RP flavored skills and add stuff like truth, identify, and a few other abilities back into the game. I realize that forensics has been around in some form since the history of mankind, but unfortunately the alliance sought to remove the game system to back those skills up.
I'm also good with *all* people not doing something (not just PCs), like using a computer to make a note or something if that is a precedence we want to set. But the reality of our technology is that it's accepted to use computers for printed materials IG and always has been. Even though I am one of the few old press people I've ever known, I highly doubt anyone wants me to OOG build a manual letter press to print a single copy of a book (however cool it would be, I did it once for the SCA and don't care to spend months doing so again). There are certain things like bopher weapons, chem light sticks and fake leather that we just have to deal with because the reality of making a truly non-anachronistic representation would be very costly and timely and this is a game. Yet on some level I would be fine with the writing / paper part because I know how to create various inks and paper by hand, but that's an issue for the anachronism police of the SCA. I just don't want to be making paper all Friday night so that I can leave a note to Yasmay saying hello. I also don't see how bringing a letter (or any phys rep for that matter) IG destroys the "live" aspect of the game. Creation of a printed book, a suit of armor or any nice looking rep simply takes too much time onsite and detracts from the game. Saying that a PC can't have a book not authorized by plot doesn't make sense, as unless it has gold piece value staff doesn't have control over things like fudge, writing, singing, guitars, leathermaking, etc. Some OOG artistic skills come into the game through slightly modern means and we just have to deal with it.
Now furthermore, since I my real life major is graphic communications and I took four years of classes in calligraphy and lettering- is an artistic skill such as having been employed as a real forger not supposed to be used because I can write like someone else? Computers are our equivalent to scribes and various form of printing that have existed for millenia.
In any case I don't care OOG who gets blamed for IG stuff. Hell... the idea of playing Balryn like he was in NW/Oregon for a while is fun just thinking about it and being challenged with a town mod is often more fun than going on the town mod. Then again, nothing is written about how things turn out and I'm fairly certain that regardless of what happens... it's probably something Balryn will enjoy. I don't have any problem with the story arc in any way. If people try to go after Balryn for killing a daisy IG, I'm good for it (which by the way, has happened). People think that getting away with a crime is fun... but the reality is it is far more enjoyable getting caught and fighting over it. Conflict equals far more potential for interesting roleplay.
I never said plot had any malice towards the situation- it was however a significant possibility that they didn't have the correct information to act on. I *NEVER* said they were cheating. I said that I wanted to make sure plot hadn't mucked something up. There's no malice saying that plot can make an accidental call! Plot/Rules/PCs/NPCs/Flying Monkeys muck things up all the time in games. It's the entire reason I've seen dozens of rules and plot adjudications before. Even after being told that JP didn't do something as Gregor (by someone uninvolved) I asked someone to call him and confirm, because the #1 thing on my list was Gregor doing what he did (with a good amount weighed in for it after Monday's arguement at the previous game). While I waited for a response I wrote Dave & Jim and they wrote a completely proper response to my inquiry and I was completely good with it. There isn't anything wrong with confirming it was all done right and asking questions. I ask the same questions when I hear a rules call and want more information, I check and ask questions. Boy do people really like throwing around the cheating stuff... pretty much everyone is bashing on me for asking questions (in private, but brought up on the board by JP) because I wanted to make sure that my after actions IG did not go down a snowball path if indeed plot had taken the wrong stuff IG (which has happened plenty of times before in many chapters, so I'm not throwing out anything new). I wrote my inquiry to plot with some other inquiries regarding the world and said "thanks for the info".
If people want to read some malice into my inquiry or say that I'm mad about someone playing a character... feel free. Getting betrayed IG was pretty much what I expected OOG. For some of you who have been playing so long I thought you would realize that this isn't the first time someone has turned on a PC.
As far as ID'ing stuff, I was originally told plot did do it and that is why I asked some questions. Plot was pretty good with the situation at the last event and I thought it sounded off and wanted to know some details. Dave/Jim explained how it happened and gave a brief breakdown and I was good with it. I wasn't at the game and was asking strictly OOG because I would rather know that everything happened properly rather than have any doubts from what other people relayed to me, which indicated that it didn't happen the right way and raised questions that I asked (and were then answered by staff).
If we want to committ red herring plots then I'm fine with it, I've done a few in my years and regardless of how handwriting is pulled it doesn't make a bit of difference. The reality of the game system is that it lacks the ability to actually validate evidence by introducing certain elements and then failing to give a system to validate or invalidate information. NERO once had some forgery skills which I liked and had some things like physical identify in the ritual system- but they are now just points in craftsman other and don't exist. If players/characters want to examine things and form an idea that's great... but plot doing would break the spirit of the system by introducing skills that are not in the game (which is why I asked some questions). In the white hair example, there isn't anyway in the game to possess a skill to identify a "dark elf" hair over an "old dwarf" hair, so the reality of the game world is that forensics and most of the things we take for granted don't exist in NERO. NERO has unfortunately stripped away most of the RP type skills it has and kept only the the combat side of the rules... I would love to see some proposals for some more RP flavored skills and add stuff like truth, identify, and a few other abilities back into the game. I realize that forensics has been around in some form since the history of mankind, but unfortunately the alliance sought to remove the game system to back those skills up.
I'm also good with *all* people not doing something (not just PCs), like using a computer to make a note or something if that is a precedence we want to set. But the reality of our technology is that it's accepted to use computers for printed materials IG and always has been. Even though I am one of the few old press people I've ever known, I highly doubt anyone wants me to OOG build a manual letter press to print a single copy of a book (however cool it would be, I did it once for the SCA and don't care to spend months doing so again). There are certain things like bopher weapons, chem light sticks and fake leather that we just have to deal with because the reality of making a truly non-anachronistic representation would be very costly and timely and this is a game. Yet on some level I would be fine with the writing / paper part because I know how to create various inks and paper by hand, but that's an issue for the anachronism police of the SCA. I just don't want to be making paper all Friday night so that I can leave a note to Yasmay saying hello. I also don't see how bringing a letter (or any phys rep for that matter) IG destroys the "live" aspect of the game. Creation of a printed book, a suit of armor or any nice looking rep simply takes too much time onsite and detracts from the game. Saying that a PC can't have a book not authorized by plot doesn't make sense, as unless it has gold piece value staff doesn't have control over things like fudge, writing, singing, guitars, leathermaking, etc. Some OOG artistic skills come into the game through slightly modern means and we just have to deal with it.
Now furthermore, since I my real life major is graphic communications and I took four years of classes in calligraphy and lettering- is an artistic skill such as having been employed as a real forger not supposed to be used because I can write like someone else? Computers are our equivalent to scribes and various form of printing that have existed for millenia.
In any case I don't care OOG who gets blamed for IG stuff. Hell... the idea of playing Balryn like he was in NW/Oregon for a while is fun just thinking about it and being challenged with a town mod is often more fun than going on the town mod. Then again, nothing is written about how things turn out and I'm fairly certain that regardless of what happens... it's probably something Balryn will enjoy. I don't have any problem with the story arc in any way. If people try to go after Balryn for killing a daisy IG, I'm good for it (which by the way, has happened). People think that getting away with a crime is fun... but the reality is it is far more enjoyable getting caught and fighting over it. Conflict equals far more potential for interesting roleplay.
Kauss said:The question I have is, why did you tell people oog? I presume its not people in the know already, or telling staff oog so they knew more.
Also when you told oog people oog, was game on or off, were you in an IG area and were you clearly oog? I ask for the obvious reasons.
Just to be able to clarify that statement for all OOG. I was in the kitchen talking to an OOG person who was clearly marked but to be honest can't remember if was after game call.
Seattle_Jim
Elite
Mykell said:Just to be able to clarify that statement for all OOG. I was in the kitchen talking to an OOG person who was clearly marked but to be honest can't remember if was after game call.
I generally consider this matter closed, but the conversation that was overheard, believed to be in game, did not take place in the kitchen.
I would suggest to everyone that they be very careful when slipping out of game and genreally discourage OOG talk during an event, but we are all guilty of it. I also discourage people from saying things out of game to people in the kind of manner I was led to belive happened in this case. It is a violation of the good sport rule to say OOG information to protect yourself in game. My understanding in this case is that so much conflicitng information went out as a means to determine and catch metagaming, but it walks a fine line, so everyone should be careful.