Activated Spells of a Different School

[Draven]

Two Part Question -

Eric the Earth Caster got his hands on a magic item made by his friend Celine the Celestial Caster. She made it with 1 x day Circle of Power and 1 x day Magic Armor.

Question 1) Eric's able to cast 9th level Earth spells, so he can memorize a Circle of Power. That being said, since this is a Celestial spell, and not an Earth spell, is the incantation required for either spell?

Question 2) Is Eric the Earth Caster able to use the Circle of Power to cast Earth or General Aspect rituals, as he's an Earth caster, but the item is Celestial-made?

 

[Inaryn]

Spells that cross the Earth/Celestial border, in this case, Circle of Power, do not require that the caster use the incant if they are capable of memorizing the spell out of their respective school.

The circle produced, however, is still the aspect it was when cast into the item. If Eric the Earth caster is using Earth formal levels to cast a ritual, but his circle is celestial since that was the aspect of the item, then the friendly marshal is likely to break one of his components and go back to whence they came from.

 

[jpariury]

If Eric the Earth caster is using Earth formal levels to cast a ritual, but his circle is celestial since that was the aspect of the item, then the friendly marshal is likely to break one of his components and go back to whence they came from.

This part of the response is not part of the rules. Breaking a component for failing to meet the necessary conditions to begin a ritual is not a part of the rules for formal casting. It is not a "Failure without Backlash" condition - you simply can't begin the ritual. Furthermore, if the ritual being cast is General, it may be cast in either an Earth Circle OR a Celestial Circle. See pg 132.

JP
Oregon Staff, Marshal, Formal Marshal
Seattle Marshal, Formal Marshal

 

[Inaryn]

If Eric the Earth caster is using Earth formal levels to cast a ritual, but his circle is celestial since that was the aspect of the item, then the friendly marshal is likely to break one of his components and go back to whence they came from.

This part of the response is not part of the rules. Breaking a component for failing to meet the necessary conditions to begin a ritual is not a part of the rules for formal casting. It is not a "Failure without Backlash" condition - you simply can't begin the ritual. Furthermore, if the ritual being cast is General, it may be cast in either an Earth Circle OR a Celestial Circle. See pg 132.

JP
Oregon Staff, Marshal, Formal Marshal
Seattle Marshal, Formal Marshal

JP, I recommend re-reading the formal section. While it's not a required action, it is distinctly stated in the rule book that the marshal may, at their discretion, snap one of your sticks for not being prepared to actually start casting the ritual.

Further, it also states that attempting to cast a ritual in a circle of the incorrect aspect causes the ritual to fail to start. While a ritual that is general may be cast in either an earth or celestial circle, once a ritual is begun, it takes on the aspect of the person casting it (this is established by the rules for extending rituals.) Therefore, an earth formalist cannot cast rituals in a celestial circle of power.

 

[Sym of Moria]

Inaryn wrote:
JP, I recommend re-reading the formal section. While it's not a required action, it is distinctly stated in the rule book that the marshal may, at their discretion, snap one of your sticks for not being prepared to actually start casting the ritual.


______________________________________________

I looked thru the rulebook for this and I did not see it. Can you advise what page this is on?
Thanks

Onitt
NJ Staff and former Marshall
= )

 

[MKing]

Inaryn wrote:
JP, I recommend re-reading the formal section. While it's not a required action, it is distinctly stated in the rule book that the marshal may, at their discretion, snap one of your sticks for not being prepared to actually start casting the ritual.


______________________________________________

I looked thru the rulebook for this and I did not see it. Can you advise what page this is on?
Thanks

Onitt
NJ Staff and former Marshall
= )

pg 130 of the rule book, last part of right side...under Gather Resources:

 

[Inaryn]

Pg 133 actually.

Gather Resources: The caster should take
the time to make sure all of the required resources
are ready. Failure to have any of these
prerequisites available at the time of ritual casting
means the ritual cannot be conducted, and
the ritual marshal may confiscate and break one
ritual component in the caster’s possession. The
caster is responsible for ensuring that the following
items are available when a ritual marshal
is sought to officiate:...

 

[jpariury]

The caster is responsible for ensuring that the following items are available when a ritual marshal is sought to officiate:...

Note that circle aspect is distinctly not listed in the list of items afterwards. In fact, you're not even required to have an active circle prior to the marshal reviewing everything.

Also, the rules on pg 129 re: general aspect rituals states that the caster chooses "which aspect of other rituals will be affected" (underlining mine), not the aspect of the ritual they're casting at that moment. That's, as best as I can tell, a side effect of the actual casting, not a primary event. (i.e. it occurs after the player states "Begin ritual casting")

JP
Oregon Staff, Marshal, Formal Marshal
Seattle Marshal, Formal Marshal

 

[Sym of Moria]

Thanks I found it.
= )

 

[phedre]

JP: I'd have to agree with Sarah on this one. You can't cast a ritual in a circle opposite the aspect of the ritual being cast, so it falls under the "you don't have your stuff for casting your ritual" if all you have is the CoP item of the "wrong" aspect.

I always saw it as a fee for the waste of the marshal's time, if they decide to snap a stick or consume anything else from the casting materials.

 

[jpariury]

I hear ya, but that's not what is supported by the explicit list, and I especially don't feel that consuming "anything else" is called for.

Again, the general theme of the rule is "don't call for a marshal and then have them sit around waiting for you to get your crap together". Having the wrong circle (if that's what's intended for General rituals cast by a Formalist of a school opposite the school of the Circle) doesn't really fit that... at worst, it's one of those "whoopsy" things.

The formal rules are pretty (pardon the pun) formulaic. If a non-plot formal marshal is stepping outside of the explicit rules outlined in the rulebook without prior plot approval, I feel they're being, at best, selective in their duties, or, at worst, showing signs of favoritism/poor sportsmanship.

JP
Oregon Staff, Marshal, Formal Marshal
Seattle Marshal, Formal Marshal

 

[phedre]

I don't think I'd do it unless the players kept me sitting there for a significant amount of time (as in, I'm waiting 45 minutes for them to start a 5 minute ritual, with lots of excuses and "It'll be just another minute!"), and never without an OK for something like that from plot/HoR/owner. Especially the breaking/consuming of any of the other ritual goods. That should really only be done if there's a backlash where the ritual fails.

If anything, I'd probably drop the circle, with everyone in it taking 1 damage, Vengeance style, straight to body. If it was battlemagic anyway, it was going to have to come down so they could put one up of the appropriate aspect. Then I'd tell them to get everything together and come back to monster camp when they were ready to start.

 

[Toddo]

If anything, I'd probably drop the circle, with everyone in it taking 1 damage, Vengeance style, straight to body. If it was battlemagic anyway, it was going to have to come down so they could put one up of the appropriate aspect. Then I'd tell them to get everything together and come back to monster camp when they were ready to start.

While not harsh by any means I would have an issue with this if one of our rit marshals did this as the rules in no way allow for alternate "punishments." If PCs aren't ready for a ritual the Marshal can either break a reagent or not break one. The ritual marshal has discretion as to if the PCs will be penalized or not but I don't see where they have the discretion as to what the penalty will be (never mind that a ritual marshal improvising a plot effect on the fly is a whole other issue).

-toddo
Marshal/Plot Chair, HQ

 

[Avaran]

Gone are the days of being able to start a ritual unless you have *everything* you need (i.e. you can't put up a circle around another ritual and begin casting with no components with the express purpose of trying to get an auto-backlash that would effect people inside the interior circle). This means that if you are short a component, or have the wrong component(s), then the ritual does not even begin in-game so there's no reason in-game for a random component to be broken. It feels like that is old wording, based on the previous assumption that one could begin a ritual without having all of the appropriate components/cats.

So how does that mesh with the idea that a marshal can break a component because someone "wasted their time" or whatever reason they may have? That is an OOG issue that should be handled OOG, there is no reason to punish characters for something that technically could not have happened in-game if for no other reason that it breaks consistency between the in-game world and the rules. I hate stuff like that, and it feels like there should be more effort on the part of the staff to avoid that kind of thing; it feels overly and unnecessarily punitive.

Adam, OR plot staff.

 

[Toddo]

It's at the Marshal's discretion and I've never actually seen someone break a stick. Given the rules, you have that option. Whether that option is exercised is up to the Rules staff of the chapter so this doesn't really keep me up at night.
As for not being able to auto backlash a rit by just putting up a circle and trying to start a ritual you don't have comps for, it was never really the intent (based on my understanding of that previous discussion on the rules board) that you should have been able to do that in any event.

*Activate Moderator*

We're straying from the topic though, can we get the non-germaine bits moved to theory or discussion so we don't clutter this forum?

-toddo
Marshal/Plot Chair, HQ

 

[ASFDan]

In all reality, casting a ritual uses up about half an hour of a ritual marshal's time for a five minute ritual, *if* everything goes as directed in the rulebook. YMMV, but we don't tend to have people just standing around waiting to marshal rituals. That means your marshals have to take time from whatever else they may be doing to come help you, and if you're not 100% ready to go then you're wasting time that person could be spending elsewhere. For that reason I do enforce this clause, and have given all my marshals clearance to do so as well. It makes for a grand old stick breaking orgy every event. Shredded reagents EVERYWHERE! :funny:

Seriously, though, it happened twice early on and not in a long time. As a consequence, the time marshals spend waiting on rit casters has dropped dramatically while the acknowledgement (and gratitude) for the use of the marshal's time has gone up. In my book that makes for a fairly effective instructive/corrective policy.

To answer the original questions,

1) Since Eric has the potential to cast a circle out of memory he does not need to use the full incant to activate the item, regardless of its aspect.

2) Eric may attempt to cast a ritual in a circle of the wrong aspect, but such rituals will fail to start. Since general rituals take on the aspect of the caster this holds true for those as well.

There is no penalty listed for a ritual that is attempted but fails to start, but that absence does not preclude the possibility of such a penalty existing, as local plot teams have ultimate discretion over the ritual system and may have instructed the marshals on what to do in such a case. In short, if there's a question regarding ritual grey areas you should have a conversation with your local chapter's plot team and/or head of rules.

For everyone:
Ritual casting is expensive, time consuming, and dangerous enough when you do it correctly. When you are reckless/careless you increase those costs needlessly. If half the time we spend trying to argue our way out of penalties for messing up was put into making sure things were done right in the first place everyone involved would probably be a lot happier (and possibly less singed).