Alliance LARP: The Quest for Stuff

[Alavatar]

What I am getting at is magic items are so ingrained in the culture of the game that every highbie needs to have them to fully participate in the thick of combat as it currently exists. I know there are exceptions to this and I am not saying that is a terrible thing.

That's a good way of putting it.

 

[Polare]

My primary loves stuff! He sees stuff and goes "Hooray!"

As a more useful answer to the original question (of "do characters really stop wanting stuff at a certain point?")... My character's want of "stuff" has changed dramatically over the years depending on where he's currently at. Here's the quick synopsis:

0-3 years: Played in a chapter with an extremely low magic item policy. This was long before Alliance or Treasure Policy, for reference. Stuff looked neat but didn't really try to get it.

4-10 years: Was race changed into a Hobling and started playing in chapters with a more "Alliance standard" magic item policy. Character started loving stuff and collecting stuff like crazy! Made a couple of big items.

11-14 years: Was much more strongly involved in several plotlines than before and my character was "set" in terms of stuff. While I still kept up with the "Hoblings like stuff!" bits of my character, my drive to acquire was far lower than it had been before. Generally speaking, I felt that I had enough "stuff" and didn't really need much more. I worked far more to help equip the others around me than I did to equip myself.

15-16 years (present): Back in the "get stuff!" mode, primarly because one of my big items (a 5-year item) is about to expire next spring and I feel a strong desire to replace it. After I do, I plan to go back into the prior mode with the character because he'll again have "enough stuff". Realistically, if the item which is about to expire had been Permanent instead of Preserved, I would be much less likely to have gone back into a "snag everything!" mentality for that character.

So yes, at some point I felt I had "enough stuff" and made a conscious OOG choice to let other players get "more stuff". My character still wanted "stuff" (it's part of the character) but far more of that "stuff" went to helping other characters out (both PC and NPC) or back to Plot for various plotline needs. Now that a big 5-year item is about to expire, I want to maintain my current level of "stuff" so I'm working to get "stuff" again.

At this point I've been playing the character long enough to have gone through three Preserves (not that they were around 16 years ago, but you get the idea). For long-term characters, Preserves just don't cut it. If Permanence went away I'd definitely be going for "stuff" far more with that character than I have over the last few years.

-Bryan

 

[evi1r0n]

So yes, at some point I felt I had "enough stuff" and made a conscious OOG choice to let other players get "more stuff". My character still wanted "stuff" (it's part of the character) but far more of that "stuff" went to helping other characters out (both PC and NPC) or back to Plot for various plotline needs. Now that a big 5-year item is about to expire, I want to maintain my current level of "stuff" so I'm working to get "stuff" again.

I can definitely see that. I am going through an equip my faction phase, since I feel my PC has everything he needs, for now. I do plan to ramp up my items when I hit certain levels to keep a competitive edge in the adventuring world.

I have played with 3 of Bryan's characters and all have very different goals and style. I even apprenticed under his "I love stuff" character. He seems to have fun playing all 3 styles.

I think one thing I can take away from this thread is to play the game in a way that makes you and your PC happy. That's about all we can do. If you find yourself not liking a certain facet of the game, don't participate in it, find something else that you enjoy. :yes:

 

[Duke Frost]

My primary loves stuff! He sees stuff and goes "Hooray!"

As a more useful answer to the original question (of "do characters really stop wanting stuff at a certain point?")... My character's want of "stuff" has changed dramatically over the years depending on where he's currently at. Here's the quick synopsis:

<snip>

So yes, at some point I felt I had "enough stuff" and made a conscious OOG choice to let other players get "more stuff". My character still wanted "stuff" (it's part of the character) but far more of that "stuff" went to helping other characters out (both PC and NPC) or back to Plot for various plotline needs. Now that a big 5-year item is about to expire, I want to maintain my current level of "stuff" so I'm working to get "stuff" again.

At this point I've been playing the character long enough to have gone through three Preserves (not that they were around 16 years ago, but you get the idea). For long-term characters, Preserves just don't cut it. If Permanence went away I'd definitely be going for "stuff" far more with that character than I have over the last few years.

-Bryan

Hmmmm. Two 16 year+ players (Brian and me) who are on just about exactly the same page with our high level character and their "stuff".

Another point on the permanent duration. My high level character built his mace IG. It is perm with 7 rits, so not that huge. I could actually dragon stamp a better item(s) each year. But it has a name, a history and I spent 7 or 8 hours in a CoP with a wizard having it made when each rit lasted half an hour or an hour to cast (you whippersnappers got it easy with your five minute rits). I've been through countless adventures with it. To me, the mace has epic meaning to both my character and me. It's not just some trinket. Other characters in the chapters I play can tell what weapon my character use. My team can tell you it's name and what it means. It becomes part of the character's identity and plotline, like Excalibur or the Sword of Truth or the Heron marked blade. If it popped after five years...a big coolness factor would be gone out of the game that has nothing to do with what the item does but what it IS.

As I said, I could gobby or dragon stamp a more effective weapon every year or five years. And I would be sad.

Scott

 

[evi1r0n]

Another point on the permanent duration. My high level character built his mace IG. It is perm with 7 rits, so not that huge. I could actually dragon stamp a better item(s) each year. But it has a name, a history and I spent 7 or 8 hours in a CoP with a wizard having it made when each rit lasted half an hour or an hour to cast (you whippersnappers got it easy with your five minute rits). I've been through countless adventures with it. To me, the mace has epic meaning to both my character and me. It's not just some trinket. Other characters in the chapters I play can tell what weapon my character use. My team can tell you it's name and what it means. It becomes part of the character's identity and plotline, like Excalibur or the Sword of Truth or the Heron marked blade. If it popped after five years...a big coolness factor would be gone out of the game that has nothing to do with what the item does but what it IS.

As I said, I could gobby or dragon stamp a more effective weapon every year or five years. And I would be sad.

Scott

It is a cool feeling to name your weapon and slowly see people start referring to it by name. My solution to not having my named sword permanent is to just rebuild it when the magic expires. That way I can tweak effects but keep the same phys rep and sword. It's still the same sword.

Quick sidebar: What did you name your mace? I named my sword Legion.

Hmmmm. Two 16 year+ players (Brian and me) who are on just about exactly the same page with our high level character and their "stuff".

I am curious what you mean by this?

 

[Duke Frost]

My mace is named Kumi Kyoki. Only my team refers to it by name, but most people know Find'rth has a magic mace.

My point with the opening comment was that two long term players, who play on opposite coasts, feel the same way and that's likely not a coincidence but a matter of a certain maturity with the game. I did enjoy stuff quest once upon a time. I've done it at least twice with characters. But that doesn't mean I want to do it again. I did lots of stuff in my 20s that I don't want to do now in my 40s. I was a staff analyst before I was a senior manager at my company. I enjoyed my time as a staff analyst. But I don't necessarily want to be one again.

 

[RuneBrighteyes]

So is this Necro-Threading?

Here's my take on stuff. I will admit that my bias is pretty anti-stuff.

I do not like that I NEED stuff to "touch" or effect part of the game. One of my characters is an 19th level Fighter. He needs a magic whacker to magically whack whackable things. I get that some poeple would say that is part of the game. I do not view that "reality" as value added to the game.

Additionally my 19th lvl fighter needs other magic stuff so that he is not just taken out easily by a high volume of effects. I am not talking "I am a lone wolf" without team support, even with a team items are necessary in many circumstances. Add to that I do not want to keep track of more things in a fight- I would much prefer less.

So I quest for stuff so that my character can "touch" the game. It is NOT part of that character's concept, but it doesn't matter. I have to think about it so that I can actively play the game.

The solution is better PC/NPC ratios which lead to more reasonable statting which leads to less NEED for stuff.

 

[evi1r0n]

So is this Necro-Threading?

Kinda, yeah. But that's okay.

The solution is better PC/NPC ratios which lead to more reasonable statting which leads to less NEED for stuff.

Everyone has their idea of "fun" at events. You hate the quest for stuff, other people love it. I like deep RP in favor of combat. I don't always get it. I don't mean this to be a them's the brakes type of response but there has been very little movement in Alliance to alleviate the quest for stuff.

 

[RuneBrighteyes]

Given the age of the previous posts I guess it is just like raising a crappy zombie- not that old.


"Everyone has their idea of "fun" at events. You hate the quest for stuff, other people love it. I like deep RP in favor of combat. I don't always get it. I don't mean this to be a them's the brakes type of response but there has been very little movement in Alliance to alleviate the quest for stuff"

I still feel my call for better ratio helps alleviate some of the NEED for items- proper statting can do the rest. It would also give players more access to WHATEVER they want out of LARP- unless their goal is to not have things to do.

Just because there has not been headway on this does not mean it should stop being addressed. I am concerned for keeping Alliance strong. There are MANY other options out there, so we need to make sure that we are offereing the best product that we can.

Make sense?

 

[evi1r0n]

You make perfect sense. I think people should flag wave for what they believe would fix the game. I was more summarizing the current status of the issue. Ratios are a tricky thing. We have pretty rad ratios on the WC and still have a hell of a time effecting some players.

 

[Dreamingfurther]

Some players play/stat/fight with their characters to build them in such a way as to make themselves very invincible. Is that a bad thing?

 

[evi1r0n]

Wasn't picking the powergaming fight. It's all good. I never said anything like that. I was making the point that ratios aren't everything. :thumbsup:

 

[obcidian_bandit]

Some players play/stat/fight with their characters to build them in such a way as to make themselves very invincible. Is that a bad thing?

Yes. 100%, without a doubt, absolutely, unequivocally, yes.
You can make it a conversation about powergaming, being cheesy, haves vs. have-nots, item bloat, level bloat, damage bloat, play style, or whatever else you want, but the facts of the matter are:

• It's harder to scale for a wide power disparity on a module, meaning it will probably be either less fun for the top or less fun for the bottom.
• NPCs don't tend to like fighting "the invincible guy," so you're making the game less fun for them.
• The game is less fun on God Mode. People hate to hear it, but players don't always know what's best for the game. They may think that they're having more fun being invincible, but I'm pretty comfortable telling most people that they're wrong. (This isn't a point that I'm willing to discuss over the internet, it will inevitably circle around "I know better than you," by experience, play time, staff time, player maturity, or some such. Even evidence-based discussions on the forum devolve into "Nuh-uh/yeah-huh," and this one isn't even inherently evidence based. Feel free to "Nuh-uh" me, I refuse to touch it.)

 

[Dreamingfurther]

wow... Okay that is 100% NOT what I meant.

I wasn't talking about players on 'God mod' or powergamers or non-powergamers.

Some players will run/hide/sit in a ward once all their skills are used up. Or fight so defensively they almost NEVER have to use those dodges/prisons/whatever they have that helps them to survive.

So yea when you make a 'hard push' those are the guys that survive and they seem 'untouchable'... THAT's what I was talking about. Is that really bad? If you we are basically suggesting that there is 'one right way' to play a character...


I would also just politely ask, if you aren't 'willing' to discuss something can you please retrain from commenting on it? By saying the discussion is 'pointless' (which I don't think is true) it makes it very hard to continue with the discussion (amongst those who are interested) so it feels a bit like 'post sabotage'.

 

[obcidian_bandit]

that is 100% NOT what I meant.

I'll believe you, but I don't understand how someones stats

Some players (...) stat (...) their characters to build them in such a way as to make themselves very invincible.

influence their ability to sit in a ward or to fight defensively. It certainly sounds like you and I (and Ron) were talking about the same thing, but I'll buy that you meant something else.

If you we are basically suggesting that there is 'one right way' to play a character...

I don't understand this statement.

I would also just politely ask, if you aren't 'willing' to discuss something can you please retrain from commenting on it? By saying the discussion is 'pointless' (which I don't think is true) it makes it very hard to continue with the discussion (amongst those who are interested) so it feels a bit like 'post sabotage'.

No. The point is valid, and whether or not someone agrees with it I don't think will change with any amount of discourse. It's possible, sure, but in this case I was asserting something that I didn't feel I could defend via the internet and over the bellowing of people who will inevitably read something that I wrote the wrong way. Since my assertion was basically "If you think playing on God-Mode is fun, you're wrong: I know because I'm better at the game/played longer/whatever than you," I figured that that would go south pretty quick. If you'd like to continue that discussion by taking up the cause of "I know better than God-Mode guy," you're welcome to do it, it'll probably sound less cocky if you say it about me than if I say it about me. :thumbsup:

 

[RuneBrighteyes]

Some players play/stat/fight with their characters to build them in such a way as to make themselves very invincible. Is that a bad thing?

My opinions on the value of that choice are not what I am talking about.

My desire is for a game where no one HAS TO have stuff to actively play the game at whatever lvl they are at.

If you have the stuff you can do cooler things- and that is okay by me. My issue is that there is even a concept like "expected gear".

I understand that the bones of the game may be based on D und D etc. Perhaps base it more on this- in D und D 4th edition there is an option to just add a static value to offenses and defenses at certain character levels to make the math of the game and the balance work. That way no one ever NEEDS an item to play on level. On the table-top my players only really get jazzed about the cool story of the items, or if they do a unique effect. This may or may not happen at LARP.

At LARP a game that just doesn't REQUIRE players to have certain gear to "touch" the world would mean caring about stuff would be a character choice that I could honestly make in character. And no matter what my character could go to any battle and be able to "touch" 95ish% of the monsters, and the other 5% would need COOL and STORIED magic items to take them down- not just another magic whacker for magic whacks sake.

Your character quests and collects dodge items like crazy. That allows you to try some truly epic shenanigans. My character doesn't- but he doesn't have to to fight the same opponents.

Does that make sense?

 

[Alavatar]

I feel that I need Magic Items to increase my survivability and potency, to not be a two-hit take down. I imagine Fighters feel it even more-so.

A slightly sideways question, then: Do you think there's something in the game that could change to both satisfy some peoples' desire to Quest for Stuff, but still allow you to feel effective while fighting the Bad Guys, without engaging in the hated activity yourself?

Things that immediately pop into my mind:

• Remove immunities from the game. Including from NPCs.
  • Replace immunities with innate Reduced/Changed Effectiveness.
  • Reduced/Changed effect from "Instant take-outs" may be a set amount of damage or changed to another effect or something.
• Change "No" abilities (Evade, Dodge, Parry, Riposte, Spell Shield, Poison Shield, Elemental Shield, Reflect Magic, Cloak, Bane, Phase, Resist, etc.) to "Reduced or Changed Effect" abilities.
• Reduce instant take-out effects to only "top tier" abilities (Prison, Death, Eviscerate, Terminate, Vertigo).
• Revise the rest of the existing instant take-out effects (Web, Paralysis, Confine, Sleep, Waylay, Terror, Drain/Purify, Nausea, ... I am sure I am missing some) to something else that is effective, but does not immediately take a player (PC or NPC) out of the fight.
• Make Claws affected by Disarm similar to a Spirit Link is affected.
• Make it against the rules for a Weapon/Claw Carrier effect to be one that includes "No Game Abilities" except for Prison and Death.
• Remove "Release" and make Binding a Reversible School, but make higher level "Remove Binding" effects affect lower level Binding (i.e. Remove Confine removes Pin, Bind, Repel, Web, Confine)

Edited to add Reversible Binding.

Since the topic is veering towards this again, I feel like re-stating it.

 

[James Trotta]

I think the elemental blade / magic blade / earth blade 10 minute spell helped here but I certainly agree that playing a high level fighter without a magic weapon can be frustrating. If we got rid of 'magic to hit' and immune to normal and silver weapons' and changed it to takes reduced damage from these things, would that help? People might still not get to go on certain mods if they lack the magic sword or whatever. But at least a 19th level fighter wouldn't be totally useless against certain monsters.

My desire is for a game where no one HAS TO have stuff to actively play the game at whatever lvl they are at.

 

[Wraith]

I think the elemental blade / magic blade / earth blade 10 minute spell helped here but I certainly agree that playing a high level fighter without a magic weapon can be frustrating. If we got rid of 'magic to hit' and immune to normal and silver weapons' and changed it to takes reduced damage from these things, would that help? People might still not get to go on certain mods if they lack the magic sword or whatever. But at least a 19th level fighter wouldn't be totally useless against certain monsters.

My desire is for a game where no one HAS TO have stuff to actively play the game at whatever lvl they are at.

Playing an -anything- in a game where the norm is high-level characters gets frustrating for this reason. Things that are scaled to be able to survive in an environment that contains wandering PCs of level 30+ will eat low-level (I am using 'levels 1-15' as low-level here, given the state of the game today) PCs alive while being mostly immune to anything they've got.


Rune : I agree wholeheartedly with your premise, however I feel that it is an unfixable issue given that the people who have the most to lose by it being changed are the ones who get to vote on rules changes. The powerfully stuff-hording players who are also generally very loyal players are the ones who will keep paying to play as long as they're getting their shinies, so it is not in the business interest of the owners to change this policy just to make the game more casual player/newbie friendly.

I believe in the long term, this is an issue that will eventually cause a drastic drop in playerbase as long-term players get too busy with real life to keep it up and new players are too alienated to stick, but that's just me.

 

[evi1r0n]

Rune : I agree wholeheartedly with your premise, however I feel that it is an unfixable issue given that the people who have the most to lose by it being changed are the ones who get to vote on rules changes. The powerfully stuff-hording players who are also generally very loyal players are the ones who will keep paying to play as long as they're getting their shinies, so it is not in the business interest of the owners to change this policy just to make the game more casual player/newbie friendly.

I ask nicely, as I have in the past, that you not make blanket statements about the player base. Not everyone that "has things to lose" and lot of "shinies" are against changes. And not all the people who have a vote are against it. To insinuate the only reason people play is because they get their "shinies" is insulting to the idea of live action role-playing and the people who are working to improve things.

We are a community of players with differing opinions, philosophies, and play styles. You have this thing where you seem to feel picked on, then address it at a local level. Don't pop on a forum filled with players from all over the continent and who want nothing more than to see the game grow and improve. It seems like this game isn't your thing or you are just bashing the players who have a differing play style than yours. Stuff is a part of this game, as much as some of us wish it was less a part of the game.

There is a lot we can do to improve things. Some of those things are happening. Some are slower moving.