Are damage and effect calls, and other game mechanics, IG information?

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Alex319

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1. If I hear a damage call, does my character know that information IG? The rulebook says that damage calls represent "the sound of battle" and that you know, IG, if the attack was magic or silver. Is this intended to apply to just magic/silver, or to anything else about the damage call?

Example - Two PCs, Alice and Bob, get into an IG fight. There is an IG trial for assault, where it is necessary to determine who attacked first. The only witness is Charlie, who was looking away when the fight began but did hear that the first damage call called was "8 Normal". It is known from previous fighting that Alice swings for 8, while Charlie swings for 6. Could Charlie testify IG that "the first swing I heard was for 8 dagger blows, therefore Alice must have started the fight?"

2. Same question above, but for calls of other effects.

Example - At a recent event I was told that the call "Shun all non-<race>" that Pantherghasts make is OOG information, and that I only know IG whether I was affected, not which race it was for. Is this the case? And if so, does that rule just apply to that specific type of call, or to other calls as well?

3. What do characters know IG about character creation requirements, skill prerequisites, etc?

Example - Alice is accused IG of casting a Charm spell on another PC, and is put on trial IG in the same game-day. Alice has two 7th-level spell slots, and no 8th-level spell slots (and he is known IG to have not learned 8th-level spells yet.) At the trial, Alice casts two Charm spells at the ground to prove that she still has them. Could she testify IG that "I can't have more than two 7th level spell slots because I don't yet know 8th level spells, and you just saw that I still have two spells left, therefore I could not have cast the Charm spell earlier?"

Example - Same as above, except the campaign has a build cap, and Alice can show, based on skills ahe has demonstrated, that she doesn't have enough BP to have three 7th level spells.
 
1. Although it's not explicitly said certainly the answer is yes. I'd always go on if you hear the call, you know exactly what it is. Page 94 "In-game, the damage calls represent the sound the weapons make in battle. This allows you to hear damage being called and respond in-game: “It sounds like a battle is going on behind that building!” You can even tell whether a weapon is magical or silver by the sound it makes during the battle."
Although I always prefer to stay away from specific numbers when explaining something like that in game. The x dagger blows saying never feel right to me.

2. Shun all non-<race> isn't in the rule book as an effect. So your local chapter can rule however they'd like, ideally they'd clarify this effect on the boards or before pc talk to help with confusion. However, the book references hearing oog calls like spell strike, gas globes, etc and players recognizing them if heard. So if you were to ask for my ruling, I'd say it's instantly clear if you've heard the verbal.

3. I think that Alice's defense would be fine. It's very clear how spells work, since it's very methodical. Although do keep in mind some creatures could have innate spells which don't have to follow the rules. And Alice could have done it from a magic item, which also doesn't follow the pyramid rules.

Build caps probably shouldn't be understood or acknowledged in game. So just saying she couldn't cast three spells because of a build cap seems wrong.

I'm a South Michigan Rules Marshall
 
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1- Agreed with Alkalin3 wholeheartedly

2- For our chapter, You do not know in-game wich race it is NOT shunning untill you see it attack/go after it's target. You only feel like you dont want to go near it, and HAVE to stay outside of 10 feet from it if you are not the race it is targeting/not shunning. The monster is not speaking the verbal IG, that is an OOC statement from the NPC portrayer being made for mechanical purposes- its silent in game.

That is what was told to me, at any rate.

3- Also agree with Alkalin3 on all points.
 
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Going off of question 1, what happens if there's a different carrier from Normal, Silver, or Magic? If something's swinging for "5 Nausea" or "6 Death", do you have to get hit by it first to know what's going to happen if you get hit by them enough? I was always under the impression that you don't, but I could be mistaken.
 
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Normal, Silver, and Magic are no different then any other carrier (besides being the most common). It's clear from the first swing (and every swing from there on out, especially if the carrier changes). Again the rule book doesn't explicitly state it. But, there's enough evidence if you look through all the delivery methods, putting a prison down, saying prepare to die. That when you hear an oog verbal you instantly recognize it.

Ian, at South Michigan it's important because a lot of our monsters have swing carrier x many times. You should be able to recognize this and take it into account when dealing with those monsters.

Your mileage may vary with lco effects.
 
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And Alice could have done it from a magic item, which also doesn't follow the pyramid rules.

While true, magic items have their own distinct verbal call as well. Even if Alice is just saying "Activate Charm" or even using the longer "Activate I command you to be Charmed", there is still the distinct "activate" which, in my mind, is another one of those "you hear it, you know they are using a Magic Item" verbals.
 
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While true, magic items have their own distinct verbal call as well. Even if Alice is just saying "Activate Charm" or even using the longer "Activate I command you to be Charmed", there is still the distinct "activate" which, in my mind, is another one of those "you hear it, you know they are using a Magic Item" verbals.

Totally. I was more getting along the lines of, this is why it might not work as a defense in court.
 
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1. If I hear a damage call, does my character know that information IG? The rulebook says that damage calls represent "the sound of battle" and that you know, IG, if the attack was magic or silver. Is this intended to apply to just magic/silver, or to anything else about the damage call?

Example - Two PCs, Alice and Bob, get into an IG fight. There is an IG trial for assault, where it is necessary to determine who attacked first. The only witness is Charlie, who was looking away when the fight began but did hear that the first damage call called was "8 Normal". It is known from previous fighting that Alice swings for 8, while Charlie swings for 6. Could Charlie testify IG that "the first swing I heard was for 8 dagger blows, therefore Alice must have started the fight?"

2. Same question above, but for calls of other effects.

Example - At a recent event I was told that the call "Shun all non-<race>" that Pantherghasts make is OOG information, and that I only know IG whether I was affected, not which race it was for. Is this the case? And if so, does that rule just apply to that specific type of call, or to other calls as well?

3. What do characters know IG about character creation requirements, skill prerequisites, etc?

Example - Alice is accused IG of casting a Charm spell on another PC, and is put on trial IG in the same game-day. Alice has two 7th-level spell slots, and no 8th-level spell slots (and he is known IG to have not learned 8th-level spells yet.) At the trial, Alice casts two Charm spells at the ground to prove that she still has them. Could she testify IG that "I can't have more than two 7th level spell slots because I don't yet know 8th level spells, and you just saw that I still have two spells left, therefore I could not have cast the Charm spell earlier?"

Example - Same as above, except the campaign has a build cap, and Alice can show, based on skills ahe has demonstrated, that she doesn't have enough BP to have three 7th level spells.

1 - 3. All verbals, whether they are in game (i.e. spell incants) or out of game (almost everything else, including weapon verbals) are considered to be visually identifiable. Thus "I command you to Awaken", "Magic Sleep", "Activate Shun", "Spellstrike Charm", "Dominate Gas Poison", "Vampire Charm Gaze", "Arcane Fear", "Elemental Love" and "8 Berserk" tell everyone in the area who heard the call exactly what happened both out of game and in game. Even the ones that are totally out of game and do not involve any speaking by the character that produced the effect are immediately obvious to everyone who heard the verbal. In the same way that a player is required to state a defensive call loudly enough that everyone nearby knows their Spell Shield went off, anyone can tell what spell or gas or wand damage type you threw, even if they are playing a deaf character. It just works that way; if you heard the verbal, you know what it was.

With that said, it is encouraged to avoid pulling back the curtain too far. In the first example, I would discourage Charlie's player from the phrasing given in two ways. Firstly, I would refer to the blow instead of the swing, since recognizing the verbal is considered to represent the in game sound of combat in general, and most of that sound would come from contact of weapons against other weapons, armor, etc. Secondly, I would avoid referencing the specific damage numbers as often as possible, instead saying that the first blow hit with more force than Bob is known to possess. We are not Erfworld the LARP; our characters do not know their body point totals explicitly and should not walk around in game bragging about their slay damage. For that reason I would also encourage people to avoid using logic like: "Dana swings 10s with an unmagical longsword, so I know she cannot stun more than two of my limbs with her own skills," or "Eric throws 7s with his wand, so he has six 9th level spells, and I saw him cast three prisons at that lich, and he also warded his cabin and his bunk today, so he definitely only has one left." As far as purchased spell slots go, that's more in game unavoidably true: nobody ever has more 5th level spell slots than 4th, period, and that's something that is very clear to anyone in game who knows anything about magic. Of course, if Fern is prosecuting Alice for Charming someone illegally, she can easily point out that Alice cannot possible PROVE she has no more than two 7th level spells. Anyone who would Charm someone without their permission would lie about their skill level, could have BEEN lying for ages, and Alice has prior convictions: remember that time she assaulted Bob?

2, in depth. As per the answer to part one, a verbal that is heard is always understood to the fullest. If a pantherghast (or a supervising marshal) is calling the "Shun all non-XXXX" verbal preemptively and fully, then anyone in earshot of that verbal knows exactly what is going on. If instead the pantherghast (or marshal) is instead telling people who get close individually that they are Shunned until someone of the appropriate race ends up in range then that would play out as you described. I would note that the pantherghast monsters represent an unusual edge case scenario in that they are doing several uncommon things at once: they use a constant trigger of an effect, they use a non-standard delivery not truly described in the rule book, and they are immune to things based on the race of the person doing them. First: they are constantly setting off an effect, which is why an elf cannot call a Resist to run inside the shun radius for even a moment. To the best of my recollection they are the only monster kind that does this. Everything else in the game that causes an effect does so actively, one instance at a time. Only the pantherghast constantly applies and reapplies an effect in this way. Second: they use a non-standard delivery which the rule book does not adequately describe, namely the "Radius...kind of" delivery. Again, ONLY a pantherghast does this, nothing else in the standard monster database. If this is done by means of the general out-of-game announcement "Shun all non <race>", this is somewhat similar to the Control <monster> by Voice ability described on page 70, but is dissimilar from that in that it is inherent and unpreventable while the pantherghast is alive. The Radius delivery (page 99) is rarely used, being predominantly for traps or effects done "by voice", and is not explained in any detail. Does it work through wards or circles? Not for traps, but maybe for voice commands? The pantherghast is even worse than usual, because it isn't actively done by the creature, and doesn't depend on the creature being able to DO anything, even move, speak, or possess game skills. Even in a Prison they still cannot be approached by anyone not of the target race (barring immunity to Command). This also has the unintended side effect that all command effects are useless when in the (indeterminate) range of a pantherghast. Consider that as previously pointed out a pantherghast is always causing its Shun effect. This means that if this is being done by constantly saying "Shun all non <race>, anyone not of that race is constantly taking a shun effect, which means that they are constantly having any other command effects overwritten. If a pantherghast is nearby, shouting out its Shun, you cannot be effected by Sleep, or Fear, or Love, or any other command. This is what prompted NH to switch to using the 10' radius trigger, although that does also mean that the already non-standard delivery is now even farther from standard. The third issue, that of a defense against an effect's originator as opposed to effect group (alteration, evocation) or qualifier (silver, poison, elemental), isn't truly germane to this discussion except to further illustrate just how bizarre pantherghasts are. They are massive, mass murdering exceptions to a large number of rules and should NOT be considered to be a viable precedent for anything except themselves.
 
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*begins slow clap for Dan* I bow to your textual prowess. I think we can call this one definitively answered.
 
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