[.11] Armor Enchanments

Ragnarok

Scout
Marshal
I agree, in general, and think most of the discussion is to clarify stuff like 'if I take off my helm or gloves, does the rit still work'.
That's almost exactly what I'm asking, only I did a crappy job of asking it. Thanks for translating what I'm thinking! :)
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Off the cuff, I think the a possible solution to this may be to, post-casting, allow the results of the ritual to work on any suit up to the value of the tag it was originally cast on.

There would need to be some stuff in place to prevent shenanigans, but that would allow you to get the whole thing cast on a, day, 45 point suit that includes a helm and bracers, but not give up the ritual effects of you have to remove your helm to eat or something and rush into combat.

All in all, the way we do armor doesn’t lend itself well to the way we do magic items.

Maybe casting the ritual on a specific piece of armor that grants armor points, and then whatever effect is cast is used with whatever suit you wear with that piece of armor.

That’d run into potentially weird stuff stacking, but that’s not insurmountable.
 

Muir

Fighter
I think at the end of the day, the better question to ask is if the magic item is the armor tag, which can be used with any armor rep that is of sufficient rating, or the specific physrep at the time of casting, all parts included.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
That’s already been answered.
 

Alavatar

Baron
I view taking off a helmet or gloves as effectively voluntary damage. You are still wearing the same suit of armor, you just took "damage" by removing your helmet so now you have a few less Armor Points until you refit (i.e. put your helmet back on). The same applies to the other pieces of armor. Therefore, I would expect armor rituals to still work.

But, my Marshal-ness expired some time ago so take that with a grain of salt. :)
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
Here's the thing. Alliance armor rules are a little funky for a number of reasons. A suit of armor works only when:

(a) worn exactly as it was marshalled;
(b) worn equal or higher to the Armor Tag you have for it;
(c) worn using the specific Armor Tag assigned if it's a magical physrep.

This means that if you got marshalled for 45 points wearing chain mail layered over a gambeson on a certain set of locations, and then you get that resulting 45 point armor tag enchanted, you both need to put a physrep number on the armor physrep somewhere, and you need to use that armor physrep with that tag moving forward. That's how Alliance armor works. There are both advantages and disadvantages to this method (managing a tag per location would be a nightmare, but having to wear your helmet in every combat if that's what your armor suit includes is kind of a pain as well), but it's the one in place, and the way Armor tags work does not change in 2.0.

-Bryan Gregory
ARC
 

Gandian Ravenscroft

Knight
Chicago Staff
Marshal
Consider (and then subsequently rip to shreds, as is the way here) the following, which helps solve the "Do I seriously lose my ability to use my armor just because I took off my helm for this fight" issue, the "Why can't I just have enchanted bracers rather than a fully enchanted 45-suit that must always be worn together always" issue, and the "Armor Production is expensive and simply hurts low-level players" issue:

---

The number of Armor Points a character is able to utilize at events is determined by up to four different tags:
  • Torso Armor: Includes Chest, Stomach, and Back armor locations
  • Arm Armor: Includes Upper Arm and Forearm armor locations
  • Leg Armor: Includes Upper Leg and Lower Leg armor locations
  • Head Armor: Includes Head armor location
You cannot benefit from any Armor Points if you do not have an Armor Tag for that location, regardless of how much actual armor you might be wearing. Each Armor Tag will list the location the armor applies to, as well as a maximum point value the tag will provide for that location (Example: “Arm Armor - Up to 6 points”). You may then wear any amount of armor in that location, receiving a total number of Armor Points equal to the worn armor’s total points or the maximum specified on that location’s tag, whichever is lower. For example: You have an “Arm Armor - Up to 6 points” tag and are wearing armor that earns you 4 Points total for your two arm locations. You will receive 4 Armor Points. If you change arm armor to something worth 6 or fewer Armor Points, your same tag will also allow you to wear that amount, but if you change armor to something worth 7 or more Armor Points, your tag will only allow you to gain 6 Armor Points, with a higher-limit tag being required if you want to utilize the additional points.

Any clothing covering the torso will count as 6 points towards Armor, with any additional armor worn on any of the three torso locations stacking on top of this base 6. The bonuses for In-Genre and Mastercraft are removed, due to being inconsistent from Marshal to Marshal, with this 6 just encompassing that amount. For example: A player is wearing an ordinary shirt and a 2-point genuine leather cuirass covering her chest, stomach, and back. Her Torso Armor total is 21, with 6 coming from the base shirt and 15 coming from the leather cuirass. This said, any player wearing torso clothing is automatically able to utilize a “Torso Armor - Up to 6 points” tag.

If you are targeted by a Shatter Armor effect that does not specifically target one of your armor tags (such as just “Shatter Armor”), you may choose which armor tag is affected by the Shatter. For example: You are using 3 Armor Tags: A 4-point Arm Armor tag, a 21-point Torso Armor tag, and a 2-point Leg Armor tag. You get hit with a packet for “Spell Shatter Armor!” Since your Leg Armor tag is worth the least and no specific tag was mentioned in the effect’s verbal, you decide that the Shatter will affect your Leg Armor and destroy the Leg Armor tag. However, you later get hit with a packet for “Spell Shatter Torso Armor”, requiring you to destroy the 21-point Torso Armor tag because it was specified by the verbal, rather than your 4-point Arm Armor tag you would have probably preferred to lose.

This system also allows Blacksmith production regarding armor to become more available to more players - especially those of lower level - by dividing up the production costs rather than having them as larger-cost single tags:
Head Armor (up to 5) - 10 PP
Head Armor (up to 9) - 25 PP
Arm Armor (up to 5) - 10 PP
Arm Armor (up to 10) - 25 PP
Leg Armor (up to 5) - 10 PP
Leg Armor (up to 10) - 25 PP
Torso Armor (up to 6) - 10 PP
Torso Armor (up to 15) -25 PP
Torso Armor (up to 21) - 45 PP
Torso Armor (up to 27) - 65 PP
Torso Armor (up to 33) - 90 PP


For Magic Item Armor, any phys-rep that qualifies for Armor Points is eligible to be enchanted. When that item is being worn and an Armor Tag that includes that armor piece is being actively utilized, the properties of the Magic Item can be used, regardless of the enchantments, or lack thereof, on the rest of the armor pieces you are wearing. For example: You have a helm with a "Sturdy Armor" enchantment. Even though the helm is the only enchanted piece of armor on you, you still benefit from the Sturdy Armor effect as long as you are using the helm to fulfill points on your Armor Tag(s). If an enchantment would render a single worn piece of armor Indestructible, that ability is not conferred to all Armor Locations worn. For example: You have a helm with a "Sturdy Armor" enchantment that makes it Indestructible and are struck by a "Shatter Leg Armor" attack. The helm's Indestructibility does not extend to your Leg Armor, so the Leg Armor tag is destroyed rather than simply reduced to 0 like you would have preferred.

On a related point, this also allows Plot Teams to more easily drop enchanted pieces of armor as treasure to players, since they no longer have to give away entire physical suits of armor (which is unlikely to occur very often, if ever) and can instead provide more cost-allowable treasure reps like bracers, etc.

---

I think it's pretty straightforward, makes sense in and out of game for explaining how things work rather than just shrugging it off as "well, there are lots of mechanics you can't explain in-game" or "well, this is just how we've always done armor tags and of all the huge things 2.0 changes, we're adamant that the clunkiness of the armor tag rules remain intact", makes armor rituals more accessible to players, and makes it all just flow a lot smoother. :)

But I'm sure people will inevitably claim it's "too much work for Logistics to split the tags", even when we are already going to be redoing countless thousands of production and magic item tags and this is but a drop in the bucket. Or, even if they do like it, I can't attend a playtest, so my opinions on rule changes are completely disregarded anyway. Shrug.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Here's the thing. Alliance armor rules are a little funky for a number of reasons. A suit of armor works only when:

(a) worn exactly as it was marshalled;
(b) worn equal or higher to the Armor Tag you have for it;
(c) worn using the specific Armor Tag assigned if it's a magical physrep.

This means that if you got marshalled for 45 points wearing chain mail layered over a gambeson on a certain set of locations, and then you get that resulting 45 point armor tag enchanted, you both need to put a physrep number on the armor physrep somewhere, and you need to use that armor physrep with that tag moving forward. That's how Alliance armor works. There are both advantages and disadvantages to this method (managing a tag per location would be a nightmare, but having to wear your helmet in every combat if that's what your armor suit includes is kind of a pain as well), but it's the one in place, and the way Armor tags work does not change in 2.0.

-Bryan Gregory
ARC
1.
For what its worth, this is an excellent summary of the armor system, and something that does not exist in such a clear form in either the rulebook or any thread findable via search on these forums.

2.
Alavatar's suggestion could be a reasonable ruling or clarification that is not inconsistent with these rules. IE, removing a piece of armor from a suit does unrefittable damage until the piece is put back on.

3.
Given (c), the line from the "Sturdy Armor" that reads "This Ritual may only be cast once per suit of armor and must be cast on a physical suit of armor." should be modified to remove "and must be cast on a physical suit of armor", because it implies there is something different about that ritual than the above summary. None of the other armor rituals have this wording.

4.
Requiring a specific physrep for magic armor makes it really difficult for plot to hand out magic armor as treasure, especially for larger suits of armor. And given that tagged physreps become property of alliance, also makes it expensive for players. (I know I use subsets of my armor physreps for multiple larps and multiple characters within alliance.)
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
Requiring a specific physrep for magic armor makes it really difficult for plot to hand out magic armor as treasure, especially for larger suits of armor. And given that tagged physreps become property of alliance, also makes it expensive for players. (I know I use subsets of my armor physreps for multiple larps and multiple characters within alliance.)
That's a bit of a misnomer.

ARB 1.3 Page 133 said:
After the ritual, assuming success, the item immediately becomes property of the game. Therefore, you should not use items you wish to keep. Alternatively, if you enchant your armor or a special item that you do not wish to make an in-game item, if you are searched and the item taken in-game, you must turn over the tag but waive the ability to recognize in-game your item when it used by someone else.
Alliance would have a hard time making the case they owned your armor because an in game ritual was cast on it. You just won't recognize any magic items stolen from you if you don't cough up the rep.
 

DiscOH

Artisan
If I have 2 suits of armor
1 is 51 points and includes a small finger thimble
1 is 50 points and doesn't.

During combat my armor becomes broken/damaged. I add/remove the thimble.

As I'm now wearing an entirely new set of armor, I don't need to get the previous one repaired/refit to benefit from this new 50 point set?

100 armor tags with various combinations of trinkets = never refit during combat?
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
You would have to rep removing the entire set of armor, not just the one piece, as the new tag is, in theory, indicative of an entirely new suit of armor.
 

markusdark

Knight
I agree with Tieran and believe to avoid this issue, there should be something included under the armor description in the rulebook working like a refit - such as:

"In order to receive the benefits of a new armor tag, you must spend 60 seconds role playing putting on a new suit of armor. A Master Blacksmith only needs to spend 30 seconds doing so if they are the ones applying a new armor tag"

A second option is to RP a number of seconds equal to the value of the new armor tag itself - with Master Blacksmiths taking half as long, rounding up.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Wouldn't this fall under the same rules as having a spare weapon tag in your pouch? In that if your weapon is destroyed, you can not just put the new tag on right in the middle of fighting.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Time to introduce Bags of Holding.
 

DiscOH

Artisan
Wouldn't this fall under the same rules as having a spare weapon tag in your pouch? In that if your weapon is destroyed, you can not just put the new tag on right in the middle of fighting.
Where is this rule?
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
The Physical Representation section; effectively, you are not permitted any advantages to carrying un-repped tags. That includes the advantage of replacement.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Isn't Quiver Of Holding already one of the new rits?
Yes, but it also only permits a very small subset of tags to be held that way. Y'know, rather than everything and the kitchen sink.
 

Muir

Fighter
Yes, but it also only permits a very small subset of tags to be held that way. Y'know, rather than everything and the kitchen sink.
True, but it indicates that the concept isn't impossible game-world wise.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Here's the thing. Alliance armor rules are a little funky for a number of reasons. A suit of armor works only when:

(a) worn exactly as it was marshalled;
(b) worn equal or higher to the Armor Tag you have for it;
(c) worn using the specific Armor Tag assigned if it's a magical physrep.

This means that if you got marshalled for 45 points wearing chain mail layered over a gambeson on a certain set of locations, and then you get that resulting 45 point armor tag enchanted, you both need to put a physrep number on the armor physrep somewhere, and you need to use that armor physrep with that tag moving forward. That's how Alliance armor works. There are both advantages and disadvantages to this method (managing a tag per location would be a nightmare, but having to wear your helmet in every combat if that's what your armor suit includes is kind of a pain as well), but it's the one in place, and the way Armor tags work does not change in 2.0.

-Bryan Gregory
ARC
With the addition of these armor rituals - can we modify the ritual language to be more specific as to where it must be cast? To solve (most) of the armor on/armor off issues can we simply force the rituals to be cast on a chest-piece (the least likely to be removed at any given point). It keeps things simple, and prevents the ritual on/ritual off situation (mostly). There will be corner cases, of course, but here's a crack at wording it to fix.

"Rituals on armor are always cast on the upper chest piece of a suit of armor. This ritual is attached to the armor tag and only works if the armor is properly worn with enough physical representation for the amount of armor on the armor tag. Remember that costuming is also part of a suit of armor, so in those cases where zero armor value costuming is all that is worn on the chest the ritual will be placed upon that."

It cuts out those people who go completely topless while still wearing armor, but that's a corner enough case that I'm okay with it.
 
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