Celestial four column

jwconvery

jwconvery

Spellsword
I am just curious what people memorize as a 'base' column. I was reading the Monster DB post and a lot of casters seem to comment on celestial being underpowered. I don't want this to be a complaint of Earth versus Celestial. Just trying to get a broad spectrum on what people memorize, and their impression of the celestial school.

Yes, celestial changes a lot depending on what you are fighting. Yes, if you have a 12 block, you probably have everything. Yes it varies chapter to chapter. But what's the starting point with a four column? Assume you are going alone to a new chapter you know nothing about.

I've found a lot of the 'i call forth' is pretty wasted. Unless a monster is specifically built to take double from spells or resist physical there is little reason to mem them with the Body creep of crunchies. Poleram fighter is poking for 20's what's my lightning bolt gonna do? Sure I could Dragon's breath them, but that might not even work, and the NPC is just going to walk around a tree and come back at me. If I am fighting a big baddie, I am usually pumping scrolls into them anyway.

So for me:
4 disarm (great breakers, maybe a light if I don't have a scroll)
2 magic armors 2 pins (in a group I might keep more MA's but for a solo trip I grab some pins)
3 Binds 1 shatter (bind will do more damage if you have a fighter to hit them while the rip then Lightning bolt. Shatters are good utility for random things. Wall of force? meh I'll grab a scroll)
2 shuns 2 elemental blades (shuns work as awakens, No elemental blade or banish scrolls unfortunately)
2 spellshields, 2 webs (this can go back and forth depending on productions items available for the SS)
4 sleeps (yeah it doesn't work on every one, but if it does, WIN. pick your posion)
4 confines (possibly charms, but then I wouldn't have taken the sleeps. mixing up binding vrs command)
4 Dispels (yeah, dragon's breath is cool. But Dispels cover almost anything. Magic Augement a few and you don't need many cloaks)
2 prisons 1 Magic Storm 1 CoP (a Ward if I'm worried about it)

Undead are immune to commands, but Johnny Earth blade can usually take care of them. Elementals: yeah I don't have the I call forths, but a well placed Elemental blade works just as well. Wand damage it good too. I've tried going for more 'I call forth' stuff but they usually just get swallowed up in the body. (unless something takes extra damage from them) I don't know if this has grown out of my local chapter that has quite a few high level fighters.

What's is your column?
-Joe
 
This is all dependent on where you play.

At HQ, there are games i go all Evo. other games i do a split of half Evo, half binding, and then other times i take a mix of everything here and there and see where the chips fall.
 
Celestial is considered underpowered because of layered protectives and body hikes on NPCs to deal with magic item bloat. Period.

It really makes me angry, actually, and I rarely play casters. But when having a working magic system is a large part of what sets us apart from the just stick fighting games, making it useless is rather counterproductive.
 
Wraith said:
Celestial is considered underpowered because of layered protectives and body hikes on NPCs to deal with magic item bloat. Period.

It really makes me angry, actually, and I rarely play casters. But when having a working magic system is a large part of what sets us apart from the just stick fighting games, making it useless is rather counterproductive.
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To be fair: Underpowered and Useless don't even mean CLOSE to the same thing.

The OP was looking to have a discussion with other Celestial casters regarding what they memorize, how they use it and what their thoughts are.

He was NOT looking for a 2 paragraph rant about what makes someone who doesn't play casters angry. Period.

I have said it before in other threads. If you are truly adamant that things must change, then the best way to bring about said change within our current system is to participate actively in discussions about those topics with a SOLUTION in mind.

Complaints are useless. Suggestions are invaluable.

To answer the question at hand:

I play on a large team on the East coast. My team has 4 advanced celestialists.

- One of them has 1 or 2 9th level spells to go along with her earth 4 column: She memorizes all evocation with the exception of Prison, 1 dispel and disarms at first level.

- One (my wife) has an 8 column. She memorizes a fair mix of spells, but the only levels that she WILL NOT take evocation are 1st, 3rd and 7th. Disarm, Shatter, Confine and Charm are too strong when combined with the fact that Ice is useless against undead (and other LCO critters)

- One is a templar with a 5 column who focuses solely on effects. He will not take evocation unless there is a specific reason to do so (We had groups of monsters that each took a death effect for a specific Evocation spell for a while.)

- One is a Celestial Adept who has a fairly balanced column that matches the OP in theme. He tries to be prepared for everything, but his emphasis is clearly on survival.
 
If I had a 4-column in C today, I'd memorize (assuming I didn't know anything about the upcoming event):

4 Disarms (popping a Light scroll on Friday night for the full event's worth of light)
4 Magic Armors
4 Binds
4 Shuns
4 Webs
4 Sleeps
4 Confines
4 Reflects
4 Prisons

This is based heavily on the fact that I have Dodges, Cloaks, and Banes to back up the Reflects if they go awry. You'll note that it's very heavy on binding and command; I have a fighter bodyguard who can go to town while they're ripping free.

This is pretty much guaranteed to do significantly more damage than any Evocation spell, assuming I am not aware at memorization time of anything taking extra damage from Celestial. You'll note that only one spell on that list is Celestial-only: Prison.

For what it's worth, I don't believe that Celestial is underpowered anymore (as I did for many years), based solely on Wands. Wands are the great equalizer that makes Celestial comparable to Earth IMO. They still don't help much in the first 10 levels, but now from 10th level on up, a C-caster can be as useful as an E-caster in any given non-tailored situation (which was *not* the case before the invention of Wands as a Celestial-only tool).

-Bryan
 
Thanks for the responses, I have some follow-ups.

Re: Robb Graves:
Wow. All Evo is pretty intense for a pure caster. Is this for a specfic event like "attack of the elementals" or chapter whose theme caters to evo? I don't play East coast. What is your base column without prior knowledge of what you're going to fight?

Re: RiddickDale
I think your team illustrates a lot. Depending on what you have with it, Celestial can go a lot of different ways. Granted they are all higher level, but they fit their column to their other skills. I wonder what your wife would mem if she had to trim down her options. 72 base 9 wand charges solve a lot of damage issues. Did she play before the advent of wands?

Re: Polare
I agree wands close some of the gap between schools. Do you like the fact that that their is so much crossover between schools? I dunno. Each school has a little color of their own, but the 'goto' spells crossover. So both schools have the one shot takeouts, but can tailor to take out 'their' enemies. (Undead/Elementals)

I find myself on Market days trying to force Evo into my column. I'm glad others just forgoe it as well. Sure once I am a little higher, that might change. But then Wands will do more as well...

Thanks,
-Joe

Edited: but not before the quote. CURSES!!!! ;)
 
jwconvery said:
Thanks for the responses, I have some follow-ups.

Re: Robb Graves:
Wow. All Evo is pretty intense for a pure caster. Is this for a specfic event like "attack of the elementals" or chapter whose theme caters to evo? I don't play East coast. What is your base column without prior knowledge of what you're going to fight?

Re: RiddickDale
I think your team illustrates a lot. Depending on what you have with it, Celestial can go a lot of different ways. Granted they are all higher level, but they fit their column to their other skills. I wonder what your wife would mem if she had to trim down her options. 72 base 9 wand charges solve a lot of damage issues. I can see the templar going for effects, he can swing for the damage.

Re: Polare
I agree wands close some of the gap between schools. Do you like the fact that that their is so much crossover between schools? I'm not sure. Each school has a little color of their own, but the 'goto' spells crossover.

I find myself on Market days trying to force Evo into my column. I'm glad others just forgoe it as well. Sure once I am a little higher, that might change. But then Wands will do more as well. I dunno.

Thanks,
-Joe
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IMO, if there is not some crossover on the 'go to' spells, you end up with a have & have not bunch of casters. One weekend, one group will be all gang busters & knocking everything loopy and then the next weekend they can't get anything in because the Plot was adjusted...at that point the other group steps up.
I have not PC'd yet, but that can make for a very long weekend if you are in the have not bunch.
 
SkollWolfrun said:
IMO, if there is not some crossover on the 'go to' spells, you end up with a have & have not bunch of casters. One weekend, one group will be all gang busters & knocking everything loopy and then the next weekend they can't get anything in because the Plot was adjusted...at that point the other group steps up.
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That's a good point. My only concern is when people begin to mem the go-to exclusively, when 'their' plot monsters come out, they miss their opportunity to shine. However that could be part of the game, if I go all Evo I might be gimped a little some weekends but I get to rock others. Hmm
 
We don't seem to have the layered resists or stat creep most chapters have to deal with, so the higher end spells still tend to be rather effective here. Furthermore, assuming I were my same MWE self, that cuts out some of the stuff Bryan noted in his column above.

1: Disarm
2: Magic Armor
3: Bind/Shatter/Wall of Force <--unexpectedly difficult level to choose.
4: Flame Bolt <--I still maintain that this is the perfect spell.
5: Spell Shield <--Web if well covered by earthies.
6: Lightning Storm
7: Confine
8: Dragon's Breath
9: Prison (and one Ward Friday)

Wands really do turn things around and free the celestial column up for more utility. It's nice, and makes the class much more appealing than it once was.
 
To answer your question:

Yes, my wife played before wands. At the time that she had her 4 column she would memorize a handful of evocation spells to help deal with goblins or animals. Otherwise she would focus on effects and protectives. A column for her might have looked something like this:

1 - Disarm 3, Stone Bolt 1
2- Shield 2, Magic Armor 2
3 - Shatter 2, Bind 2
4 - Flame Bolt 4
5 - Spell Shield 3, Web 1
6 - Lightning Storm 1, Sleep 3
7 - Confine 4
8 - Dragon's Breath 2, Reflect 1, Dispel 1
9 - Prison 4 (or Prison 3, Ward 1 on Friday/Sat Lagistics)

The lone Stone Bolt and Web were taken as part of what she learned to use as a "super Spell" she basically cast Stone Bolt, Web, Prison in succession to pop a spell shield, hopefully burn a resist and then land the Prison. She seemed to have some success with that.

The addition of wands has given her a means to deal with random monsters and/or encounters where she does not feel invested enough in to bring her full spell column to bear. That has certainly freed up more of her column to take more effects/utility spells.
 
jwconvery said:
So for me:
4 disarm (great breakers, maybe a light if I don't have a scroll)
2 magic armors 2 pins (in a group I might keep more MA's but for a solo trip I grab some pins)
3 Binds 1 shatter (bind will do more damage if you have a fighter to hit them while the rip then Lightning bolt. Shatters are good utility for random things. Wall of force? meh I'll grab a scroll)
2 shuns 2 elemental blades (shuns work as awakens, No elemental blade or banish scrolls unfortunately)
2 spellshields, 2 webs (this can go back and forth depending on productions items available for the SS)
4 sleeps (yeah it doesn't work on every one, but if it does, WIN. pick your posion)
4 confines (possibly charms, but then I wouldn't have taken the sleeps. mixing up binding vrs command)
4 Dispels (yeah, dragon's breath is cool. But Dispels cover almost anything. Magic Augement a few and you don't need many cloaks)
2 prisons 1 Magic Storm 1 CoP (a Ward if I'm worried about it)

What's is your column?
-Joe
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I would go with
4 Disarm (great ss popper, if it works...even better)
4 Pin (they waist time ripping out, giving your fighter time to beat them down)
4 Bind (same as pin, if they run away, you just got rid of them with a 3rd level spell. Also works great in combination with Pin)
4 Flame Bolt (for a total of 80 dmg its worth chucking it. Some mobs even take double from flame, the other spells are situational. You should have them in scroll form)
4 Spell Shield (A must have. Spell sent back to you, bam protection. Web and SS should be in scroll form at your ready)
4 Lightning Storm (again the other choices are situational.)
4 Confine (4 more packets to stop your enemy)
4 Dragon's Breath (Only the coolest spell around. I would take them just to say the incant.)
4 Prison (A side from ward, the main reason for picking up C. Prison is the ultimate NO.)

Obviously you have read magic, so most utility spells would be in scroll format. Also it depends on if it was Friday night or not and were in need of a ward. Also I would stand over the shoulder of a fighter for support. No class is really a "stand alone" at early and mid levels.

Steve I always thought you wife was earth? Maybe she was paging it (medical) at the time.
 
1 - Fortress, Light, Disarmx2
2 - Pin x2, Repel x2
3 - Bind x2, Shatter, Wall of Force
4 - Shun x4
5 - Spell Shield x2, Web x2
6 - Lightning Storm x4
7 - Charm, Destroy, Subjugate, Confine
8 - Dispel, Dragon's Breath, Reflectx2
9 - COP, Magic Storm, Prisonx2

My play style is much more swiss-army caster than boom caster.
 
David,

She has been a Celestial Scholar since the beginning. She was even Celestial when she played as a page through her pregnancies (although her spell selection was a bit... altered).

She has been, and will forever be, an advocate of holding back until the right moment and then casting all of her spells "when they count" as opposed to burning through them all slowly. If she had me around to "do her light work," then she would do so. That's one of the reasons why she gets confused for an Earth Caster as often as she does.

That tactic seems to help casters in general. Redundant, layered defenses are certainly a problem, but if you plan for it and focus all of your efforts on the 2-3 targets that "matter," you end up being a sniper rifle as opposed to a shotgun. Wands help that tremendously, because it gives you more to do during the times when it doesn't matter.

Stephen
 
Something you might also want to factor into your pyramid is the ubiquity and practicality of battle scrolls. I've never understood why a C-Caster would memorize Magic Armours or Shield Magic when it's much easier to toss a couple gold at a Scrollsmith and save those slots for battle spells. The usual retort is "I Need my Magic Armours NOW! If I mem them, I can use 'em quick-like!" Well, sure, there are certain occassions when you don't have time to whip out a scroll, but those are times to use Magic Items (the incants even faster and that's assuming you don't have Cloak/Bane/Dodge phenom) - for nearly every other circumstance, you have more than enough time to pull the scroll and cast these buffs. A really clever C-Caster will whip up a "scroll-book" of 3"x6" index cards with these scroll tags attached, keep them hanging from the hip and ¡blammo! instant-protectives. That'll free up your other two Fifth, another two Second. I also find a Wizard Lock Scroll is just as effective as Ward since few people burn a Dispel at a "W" to see which it is, but that's up to local flavour. It might cost a bit more than memming, but it's the price of doing business and will free up your "Sally on the spot" column.

My second piece of contentious advice is not to split each level of your column. I'm of the firm opinion that until you've got a six column, there's no need to have more than one spell on each tier, especially for C-Casters. This might be a divergence of topic, so I won't overindulge in it, but suffice it to say: it's easier to remember 9 spells than 15; all the "utility" spells (protectives, augments) you could memorize are more efficiently handled by battle scrolls and MIs; more often than not, you need multiple iterations of any battle spell, so one spell is one slot wasted.

As for the Evoc debate, I'm with you: flat damage is a waste. Wands and a stack of scrolls do it better, faster, and more efficiently. If you need to take something down by Evoc: you'll cast either one spell to drop that stupid crunchy (better left to the meat-heads); or you need hundreds of points (a task best devoted to scrolls).
 
I don't find celestial under-powered, but, then, I'm only level 10 (and 2 spells from my 4-column), and I adore my wand charges.

4xDisarm - Someone convinced me to do this one event, and I never went back.
4xMagic Armour
2xBind, 2xShatter or Ice Bolt (depends on what mood i'm in)
4xFlame Bolt or sometimes 3xFlame Bolt, 1xElemental Blade
4xSpell Sheild
3xLightning Storm 1xElemental Shield or Magic Blade (depends on who in my group will be there)
2xConfine or Destroy 2xIce Storm
2xDragon's Breath, 2xDispel
2xPrison, 2xMagic Storm

I really like boom-casting, but there are just so many things that won't take some spells (useless ice...), so i've started drifting towards "i've got a spell for that" caster.
 
My main is a celestial caster and I am a huge fan of utility, my spell mem usually looks something like this:

1: Disarmsx3/lightx1
2: Magic armorx2/Pinx2
3: Shatterx2/Wall of Forcex1/lesser investx1
4: Awakenx2/Shunx1/Elemental bladex1
5: Spell shieldx3/Releasex1
6: Lightning stormx4
7: Confinex4
8: Dragons Breathx3/Dispel
9: Ward/Prisonx2/CoP
 
Shandar said:
Wands really do turn things around and free the celestial column up for more utility. It's nice, and makes the class much more appealing than it once was.
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Definitely.

One downside (if you can call it that) to wands is that they scale and the Celestial damage spells don't. Once you get a 6-column and a +3 wand, or a 9-column, or some other similar combination, there is quite literally almost *no possible reason* to memorize any of the Bolt spells. When your choice is between (a) another 4th level spell or (b) 2 packets for 20 points of damage either way, it's a no brainer.

I'd love to see *some* sort of scaling on base Celestial damage spells (and hey, if the damage was in the incant as discussed in another thread, that's one step closer to making it possible...). Especially when you see BBG's like at the National event with tens of thousands of body, any possible Celestial damage spell is a complete 100% waste of time and memorization. Even more "toned down" enemies of APL 20 and above often have hundreds of body, which makes the base Celestial damage spells rather less than appealing to memorize.

-Bryan
 
Once you start including damage calls in the incants or as part of the incants ("I call forth a bolt of 20 flame!"), you can start adding modifiers to those damage amounts (i.e. create a skill or formal that gives "+5 to flame-based spells" which would modify the incant to "I call forth a bolt of 25 flame!").
 
Mobius said:
Shield Magic
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You're showing your age. ;)

I generally agree with you on the idea that precasts can be reserved for scrolls, but scrolls are not always widely available. In our game we have one scroll maker that I know of, and scrolls rarely go out as treasure. Memorizing is often the only way our boomers *get* those spells.

My second piece of contentious advice is not to split each level of your column. I'm of the firm opinion that until you've got a six column, there's no need to have more than one spell on each tier, especially for C-Casters. This might be a divergence of topic, so I won't overindulge in it, but suffice it to say: it's easier to remember 9 spells than 15; all the "utility" spells (protectives, augments) you could memorize are more efficiently handled by battle scrolls and MIs; more often than not, you need multiple iterations of any battle spell, so one spell is one slot wasted.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I agree. Sometimes it's really handy to have an ace up your sleeve, even if it means memorizing more than 9 spells.

As for the Evoc debate, I'm with you: flat damage is a waste. Wands and a stack of scrolls do it better, faster, and more efficiently. If you need to take something down by Evoc: you'll cast either one spell to drop that stupid crunchy (better left to the meat-heads); or you need hundreds of points (a task best devoted to scrolls).
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As noted above, that's not the case in all chapters. Flat damage is still particularly powerful from about Flame Bolt on up here. The scaling damage of a wand has more potential later on in a character's life, but nonetheless I don't see people rushing to memorize Shun/Awaken/Elemental Blade here.
 
Mobius said:
Something you might also want to factor into your pyramid is the ubiquity and practicality of battle scrolls. I've never understood why a C-Caster would memorize Magic Armours or Shield Magic when it's much easier to toss a couple gold at a Scrollsmith and save those slots for battle spells.
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This is the idea that I have had for a few months now. The only problem is i have yet to find a scrollsmith in a Sea/Ore game, much to my dismay (since i'd love to learn and do just this). In fact, I know another player in the local chapters who is likewise looking for such a skill, and has yet to find it. :) C'est la vie, n'est pas?
 
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