Celestial four column

Dr_Chill said:
RiddickDale said:
Celestial casters DO have a kill spell.

Prison.

If it resolves the target is just as dead as if I land an eviscerate. It also has the added utility of being a good defensive spell as well.

Good point, I didn't think of that spell quite in that manner. The Eviscerate and Assasinate abilities are damage focused to bring the target to -1 HP, whereas Prison is an indirect spell versus direct damage. I was referencing that there was no equivalent -1 HP direct damage skill.

-Ryan

All three of them fill the same space from a design perspective. They are all top tier abilities that ULTIMATELY result in a dead target.

This is a pretty interesting thread so far. I am enjoying seeing what different people in different regions memorize.

Thanks everyone!
 
Was thinking about this, and decided I was pretty sure that most people who like enflame do so because it allows them to have extra disarms at sixth level. The 20 damage is just a bonus, not really the reason for taking the spell. I do think it's a cool idea, but speaking as someone who has thrown an enflame and seen it get a drop and thought, "Oh. That was a waste," the damage + utility category could use some work. Like any good mathboy I thought, well, if damage + utility isn't working, perhaps damage OR utility would work. What if enflame resolved as either a disarm or flame bolt if the disarm was resisted, cloaked or whatever? Incant it as "I call forth a flamebolt to enflame your <item>." What if "I call forth an ice bolt to freeze you," slowed the target to a walk, and if it was dodged still dealt 15 damage? What if a lightning bolt could shock the target into being shunned by the caster? What if a stone bolt could petrify a limb? What if elemental blast did 50 points of damage, and if it hit a spell shield, it still did 20?

I recognize that these suggestions are not in line with the simplification movement that seems to be the direction of the future. Adding more effects doesn't make the game simpler, by definition. But if the system becomes more user friendly, than stacked effects become easier to implement. "I call forth an enflame spell that disarms your sword! 20 Unstoppable Flame!" is a hefty incant, but I know I would consider taking it versus sleep. To make it more in line with naming conventions, the whole class of utility or damage effects could be jinxes, as in "I call for a <stone/lighting/ice/fire> jinx to <effect> <target> or <damage> <s/l/i/f>." So that would look like "I call forth a flame jinx to disarm your sword or else 20 flame!" It's a long incant, but it's perfectly understandable, I think.
 
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
What if "I call forth an ice bolt to freeze you," slowed the target to a walk, and if it was dodged still dealt 15 damage? What if a stone bolt could petrify a limb?

I pulled these two out specifically because of their "side" effects.

That's Disease and Wither.

Now, I'm all for getting rid of Disease and making a general school Slow spell that does the same thing and is available to all casters. (Proposed it last edition even... they went with Fortress. *shrug*)

But I think it's crossing into bad feelings realms to go buffing Celestial by taking the no-no effects from Earth and making them perfectly legal for Celestial to be throwing.
 
Anazstaizia said:
To give you some background, the metaplot for SF has had me fighting almost entirely "bugs" which wield almost exclusively body weaponry, are immune to commands and some binds, and rip free from the rest. In the other SF campaign, there are almost always element-vulnerable monsters, often fire or ice based (which I love so much). This means damage is really the only thing worth taking on some levels.

I don't have a 4-up yet, but I've got a 9th, so some of these are "planned" spells.
1: Disarm x3, light x1 (because being caught without a light sucks)
2. Magic armor x3, Repel x1 (repel is the only bind that works on bugs)
3. Ice bolt x3, Shatter x1 (shatter doesn't work on body weaponry, but it's good to have one in case someone's got a shield)
4. Awaken x2, Flame bolt x2
5: Spell shield x3, Release x1
6. Elemental shield x1, Lightning storm x3
7. Ice Storm x4
8. Dispel x4 (Because earth casters can't fix prisons)
9: Prison x4

So many of those are cases of "I can't take anything better, so...". If you could, say take a lower level spell in some of those slots, would you?

I've got a lot of activatable trinkets on top of this, mostly evocation. Those increase my damage output. It's worth it to memorize ice storm if you can throw a total of ten of them, if only for the NPC freak-out factor. By the way, I know this isn't the thread for it, but can we have a thread for use celestial scholars to complain about how our damage doesn't scale, so few thing take binds/command (this may be a chapter-specific thing), and how the wand should really do more damage, especially at lower levels?

I've always said damage is the weakest "effect" in the game for a caster. After all, it doesn't matter till they hit zero body, and you can reverse it with a Cure Light Wounds to have a fully functional target again. It's nice that we can often pick the most efficient mode of damage, but even with what was an split-scholar's Earth pyramid that topped at a 4th, I could play "yo-yo" with a wounded guy and pop him back up ten times in a row. Most effects I'm going to at best be able to counter two or three of.

If I can't disable it with an effect, it's generally melee fodder and I should be casting something to save their bacon instead. And since damage is frequently the most spells cast to disable...well, y'know. Magic items are nice, but they're something anyone can have- not just a Celestial caster. I've actually been more effective Pin spelling someone into a spot and beating them to death with a quarterstaff than the same amount of spellpower it'd take to achieve the same result. Mind you, that's in part due to overall monster stats going up- years back, you could reasonably expect to take on a monster in your level range (without it having elemental weaknesses) and burn it down in two shots. That's much less likely these days.
 
Dr_Chill said:
Again, this is on the same rabbit trail, but off topic from thr original posting.

Fighters and Rogues both have a 1-shot kill skill (eviserate and assasinate), it would seem to make sense that there would be a similar 1-shot kill skill/spell/high magic ability.

Used to be, which was Doom. It pretty much left the game well before the Alliance/NERO split, though it's still seen in some chapters.

I'm all for allowing spontaneous conversion to elemental damage spells (and for Earth, Cure ) for Celestials. Evocation gets increasingly narrow in it's application as you deal with bigger monsters.

Just call it "Elemental Bolt", an ability anyone with a 2nd level Celestial spell slot can learn. Verbal "I call forth an Elemental Bolt", damage is 4 points for a 2nd level tag, 8 for 3rd, 12 for 4th...so it's slightly less effective than a specifically memorized spell, but lets the Celestial dump damage into a target that takes it as a weakness when they have the opportunity.
 
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
Was thinking about this, and decided I was pretty sure that most people who like enflame do so because it allows them to have extra disarms at sixth level. The 20 damage is just a bonus, not really the reason for taking the spell.

I liked Enflame because it actually allows me to do two jobs with one spell. If I could duplicate spells with an elemental damage effect + something else, I would. But yeah- the damage is the bonus, since it's such a weak effect in many cases.

A 4th level Pin that dealt some ice damage? Sure. I'd be tempted to take a 7th level Shattter that dealt lightning damage as well vs. a Destroy.
 
Talen said:
If I can't disable it with an effect, it's generally melee fodder and I should be casting something to save their bacon instead.

I'm guessing we don't burden our fighters with the bulk of the killing task that you do. More often than not it's their job to hold a line and get their shots in when they can while the archers and casters lob death over them.

Mind you, that's in part due to overall monster stats going up- years back, you could reasonably expect to take on a monster in your level range (without it having elemental weaknesses) and burn it down in two shots. That's much less likely these days.

Again, that's not an Alliance-wide problem. With some exceptions (as Anazstaizia noted, we've had a lot of caster-unfriendly bugs recently, but that's resolved at this point) pretty much everything is susceptible to some degree, and pretty much everything is dead in probably three or four shots, if not the two you mention.

Virtually any issue with damage spells being undesirable to use in your chapter can be resolved by your plot team. Being someone who's spent a lot of time and effort on this specific issue in the past I can tell you that these days that the celestial magic rules as written, while not perfect (I'd love to see better scaling), are no longer the primary source of the problem.

Dan Nickname Beshers said:
Was thinking about this, and decided I was pretty sure that most people who like enflame do so because it allows them to have extra disarms at sixth level.
I would like enflame better if it weren't so damn resistable. :mer:
 
why is it bad to take some of the no-no effects from earth and put them in celestial? I do agree that celestial does kind of peter out if you're at a high APL (right now in my chapter it is pretty useful for BBEGs, but some of us fighter types are going to mature soon, swinging 12s, and 10s)

I think celestial should have the option of more utility. in table top games, the blaster's magic gets more powerful in relation to HP of monsters and people, in alliance it is a linear progression, and i think the HP of monsters goes up real quick according to APL. if it went 5-10-20-30-40-60-80-100 i think all the evo's would be well worth the slot. i know that's just throwing some arbitrary numbers out and i don't have any reason to think that would be balanced or even practical seeing as i have never seen a monster database or worked on balancing an encounter in alliance.

though evo's in pocket become way more attractive... so the numbers may be a little high, but there are lots of resistances. i would actually have to sit down with a monster database and a player progression chart to get the balancing down well
 
I like the high magic augment for evo idea. Perhaps "I call forth a greater [insert spell here]", to let NPCs know it's at double damage. It would be very expensive in high magic points, of course. I don't know what would be appropriate, perhaps someone who has a lot of high magic could suggest a number?

And Talen, there are totally lower level spells I'd take to fill up upper slots. Magic armor, spell shield, awakens, and releases are all things that I'd love to fill in around the edges of other levels. Everything you said about other spells being more useful is true, but I'll admit one of the reasons I keep taking evocation is that it's fun. :D Throwing dragon's breaths and watching NPCs scatter is one of the joys of the game for me, even if it is less effective than throwing confines or charms. I'd love a damage buff that would make evocation comparable to binding and commands, though. From a game design perspective, all the schools should be of equal strength, and all of them should, one way or another, do more damage (or prevent more damage in the case of the utility caster) than a fighter of equivalent level and build distribution because of the sacrifices in body, armor, and weapons use scholars have to make. Certain monsters may take binds, damage, or commands more often than others, and that's fine, but on average, they should be equal. Shandar may be right in that this is a problem for local plot teams instead of a rules issue, but the game design point still stands.
 
Shandar said:
I'm guessing we don't burden our fighters with the bulk of the killing task that you do. More often than not it's their job to hold a line and get their shots in when they can while the archers and casters lob death over them.

A fighter will -always- be more effective in the long run in dealing raw damage than a caster is, even a burn-em-all evocation scholar. That's simply a matter of being able to deliver unlimited levels of large raw damage chunks. Archers are closer, considering they can generally pack more "shots" than a caster will (and generally happen to be fighters themselves, just ones with ranged weapon profs).

Again, that's not an Alliance-wide problem. With some exceptions (as Anazstaizia noted, we've had a lot of caster-unfriendly bugs recently, but that's resolved at this point) pretty much everything is susceptible to some degree, and pretty much everything is dead in probably three or four shots, if not the two you mention.

It's more a matter that as time goes on, newer chapters will hit the same problems older ones have. Now, if you manage to keep that point of "If you pick the right method, everything drops in 3-4 hits" you've managed to hold it at bay. Hopefully, you'll keep doing it...but experience tells me if it hasn't happened there yet, be vigilant. Once it starts, the process seems to be relatively irreversable.

Virtually any issue with damage spells being undesirable to use in your chapter can be resolved by your plot team. Being someone who's spent a lot of time and effort on this specific issue in the past I can tell you that these days that the celestial magic rules as written, while not perfect (I'd love to see better scaling), are no longer the primary source of the problem.

It'd be nice. When monsters start running into the triple-digit body range (or at least the 60+ body range), hurling evocation gets less and less attractive and immobilizing/disabling the NPC instead much more so. That's part of the whole scaling issue overall, of course.
 
Dan took a good opportunity there to remind us... we're getting a little off topic.

The OP asked about what choices we would make if we had a 4 column of celestial and what our reasoning would be for that.

We can keep the discussion going... but lets just keep that original question in our frame of reference when we debate back and forth.

I rather like Talen's observation that C magic is essentially a list of debuffs. I actually hadn't heard it referred to that way... and it makes a lot of sense.

Stephen
 
RiddickDale said:
I rather like Talen's observation that C magic is essentially a list of debuffs. I actually hadn't heard it referred to that way... and it makes a lot of sense.

Stephen

Yep. I generally regard -1 body as a debuff that just gets nastier 60 seconds later and fully effective in five. :)

And as for a full 1st to 9th column, I'd go:

1st: Fortress x2, Disarm x2
2nd: Magic Armor x2, Pin x2
3rd: Bind x2, Ice Bolt x1, Shatter x1
4th: Awaken x1, Elemental Blade x2, Flame Bolt x1
5th: 1x Release, 2x Spell Shield, 1x Web
6th: Elemental Shield x1, Enflame x1, Lightning Storm x1, Sleep x1
7th: Charm x1, Confine x2, Ice Storm x1
8th: Dispel x2, Dragon's Breath x1, Wizard Lock x1
9th: Elemental Blast x1, Magic Storm x1, Prison x2


(Gah, not having cast-on-the-fly drives me nuts in some rules systems.)
 
What do people say to a topic split? We can break off the discussion of celestial magic scaling and evocation to another thread, leaving the four-columns to this one.
 
I'd be fine either way. My 4 columns:

Freshly 12th level scholar 4 column
1: Disarm x 3, Fortress x 1
2: Magic Armor x 2, Pin x 2
3: Bind x 4
4: Shun x 2, Flame bolt x 2
5: Spell Shield x3, Release x 1
6: Sleep x 2, Lightning Storm x 2
7: Charm x 2, Confine x 2
8: Dispel x 2, Dragon's Breath x2
9: Prison x 4

Caveats to this are that in an appropriate target rich environment shun and charm are dropped for banish and subjugate. Ward if needed at ninth. Shun (or charm) can be used to remove bad commands.

Mid-high 20s Templar/adept 4 column
1: Disarm x 4
2: Magic Armor x 2, Pin x 1, Repel x 1
3: Bind x 4
4: Shun x 3, Elemental Blade x 1
5: Spell Shield x 3, Release x 1
6: Elemental Shield x 2, Magic Blade x 2
7: Charm x 1, Confine x 3
8: Dispel x 3, Reflect Magic x 1
9: Prison x 3, CoP x 1

As a cross-class, I should be relying on a weapon to do a lot of my damage, so evocation becomes totally superfluous. Blade spells get added in to improve the odds of weapon being useful, and binding becomes even more important as it now directly translates into damage for both me and anyone else nearby with a stick.
 
My off topic part of my post got the whole post nabbed to the split thread. Luckily I'm an earth scholar and have rebirths.

Here's My Celestial 4 Column thoughts.

There are two different things I have to think about when building a 4 block: when I'm going to use it and the general APL of the game. If it's for general use/town fights, I operate in a high APL environment so raw damage numbers are going to be less effective and I'm going to be more status effect heavy. However, if this 4 block is for a character who will be in a lower APL chapter, or will be saving spells for lower APL mods / encounters, I would fold in more "damage spells" because they would be more effective. I will give both spell selections.

High APL Environment:
1: Disarm x3, Fortress x1
2: Magic Armor x2, Pin x1, Repel x1
3: Bind x3, Wall of Force x1
4: Shun or Awaken x2, Banish x2
5: Spell Shield x2, Web x2
6: Sleep x4
7: Confine x3, Charm x1
8: Dragons Breath x3, Dispel x1
9: Prison x3, Magic Storm x1

Low APL "Damage Still Works" Environment
1: Disarm x3, Fortress x1
2: Magic Armor x2, Pin x1, Repel x1
3: Bind x3, Wall of Force x1
4: Flame Bolt x3, Banish x1
5: Spell Shield x2, Web x2
6: Lightning Storm x3, Sleep x1
7: Confine x3, Charm x1
8: Dragons Breath x3, Dispel x1
9: Prison x3, Magic Storm x1
 
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