Chapter donations, a venture in silliness

jpariury

jpariury

Duke
What, in your mind, constitutes a donation to a chapter?

We have the obvious stuff for gobbies - chapter X needs a barn to store their props, Bob gives them a barn, Bob gets gobbies. Pretty straight forward, no one bats an eye because that's pretty much built into the expectation.
We have time for gobbies - chapter X needs someone to spend an hour or two cutting tags, Bob has some free time and does it, Bob gets gobbies, and everyone is cool with that. Again, it's pretty much built into the expectation.
We have cash for gobbies - chapter X needs weapons, Bob can't build weapons to save his life, but he has $100 he could throw towards weapon-making supplies, and the staff of chapter X does all the "putting it together" bits. Bob gets gobbies. Some people feel a bit tetchy about it, but as far as the system is concerned, it's all good.

What about less direct correlations?
What about, say, chapter X uses the barn Bob gave above to move their gardening tools and lawnmower into, but then uses the space that freed up in their garage to store props (ostensibly better since it's temperature controlled, etc. - a big concern for latex or even duct tape weapons)? Still sound copacetic?

How about the case for Mary who is Plot at chapter X needs to go to the event and run it, but she can't bring her kids (or doesn't want to for some child-rearing reason). Bob doesn't really care too much about attending the event, but he's up for babysitting Mary's kids over the weekend in trade for gobbies. Should Mary be allowed to make that trade?

What about a case where Mary needs a write a mod for an event, but she just doesn't have the time. She needs to do dishes and fold laundry. Bob can't write the mod, he's a PC for that event. But he can fold and wash like nobody's business. Can Mary pay him in gobbies in order for the chapter to have a couple more hours of Mary's time?

What I'm trying to say is, I'd really like someone else to do my dishes.* ;)

*Yes, this last bit is a joke. I have no intention of offering up gobbies to people to do my household chores.

That said, I was randomly wondering about the nature of chapter donations. Cash for gobbies is a volatile-enough topic that there are people who get up in arms about it. But is there any more valuable commodity than our time? We "pay" our volunteers in points towards gamestuff (xp, production, magc items, whatever) for their time - does it, or should it, matter if someone donates their efforts so that the volunteers themselves have more time available to do the things that make a chapter run?
 
All i can say is, "have dish soap, will travel". ;D
 
Unless there is specific language in the Owner's Secret Manual forbidding it, Chapters can give out Gobbies for anything they please. More than a few chapters have given out gobs for RP, costuming, and other non-tangible, non-donation reasons. Gobbies are Local Chapter Only and just like everything else LCO they are at the sole discretion of the Owner. If an Owner wants to pay Gobs to her players to clean her house, there's nothing in the ARB stopping her.

Now, if you're asking if I think that's right, I don't. I think Gobs should be as fiercely monitored and regulated as Dragon Stamps, National Database and everything. I think we're past the point of thinking that LCO effects/items are truly Local Chapter Only. Gobby effects transfer (even discounting items) as there is a direct correlation between Goblin-consumption and Build Growth.

It's ridiculous that Treasure Policy, Restricted Magic Items, Components, Scrolls, Items, Build Growth, etc. etc. etc. are highly structured, monitored, and guarded by fierce punishments - but Gobbies (which turn into all those things) are not.
 
Mobius said:
It's ridiculous that Treasure Policy, Restricted Magic Items, Components, Scrolls, Items, Build Growth, etc. etc. etc. are highly structured, monitored, and guarded by fierce punishments - but Gobbies (which turn into all those things) are not.
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guarded by fierce punishments.. ???
 
Try printing up additional Magic Item tags for an event, see what happens ;)
 
ok.. but as long as you have a staff that communicates and a trustworthy person running logistics, how is that any difference..

you don't just go "yes head of plot person, i will give 2000 gobbies to your girlfriend." you go "why? - i have to add notes in the database because this thing gets audited by the ALC" and if you think said plot person's reasoning is suspect, you tell your GM or owner and they deal with it.

honestly, yes, there have been problems with people cheating with blankets and build manipulation in the databases in the past. but the ALC is not just one or two people anymore and Matt is the MAN when it comes to running a good ship. They WILL audit your chapter's DB. They WILL report discrepancies. Someone (be it the player, owner, or logistics head) WILL have to answer for said discrepancies. It is already happening.
 
Like I said, unless there are Secret Directives known only to Owner's, Gobbies are the "School of Anything Goes". There is neither oversight nor restrictions. If the Owner says, "Please give 2,000 Gobs to my greatest Love on This our Anniversary" - there's nothing stopping them, as far I know.
 
That is, as far as I have seen from policy and discussion, exactly the case. Really, it is somewhat the same with DS, given the entirely subjective methods of deciding what a donation is 'worth'. Despite 'heavy oversight'.
 
jpariury said:
How about the case for Mary who is Plot at chapter X needs to go to the event and run it, but she can't bring her kids (or doesn't want to for some child-rearing reason). Bob doesn't really care too much about attending the event, but he's up for babysitting Mary's kids over the weekend in trade for gobbies. Should Mary be allowed to make that trade?

What about a case where Mary needs a write a mod for an event, but she just doesn't have the time. She needs to do dishes and fold laundry. Bob can't write the mod, he's a PC for that event. But he can fold and wash like nobody's business. Can Mary pay him in gobbies in order for the chapter to have a couple more hours of Mary's time?
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For things like this, I would think it would be more in line for Mary to spend some of her personal Gobbies & have them transferred to Bob for 'Services Rendered'.
 
SkollWolfrun said:
For things like this, I would think it would be more in line for Mary to spend some of her personal Gobbies & have them transferred to Bob for 'Services Rendered'.
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Actually, per the rulebook
ARB said:
These Goblin Points are non-transferrable. You cannot use your Goblin Points to buy Event Points for a friend.
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jpariury said:
How about the case for Mary who is Plot at chapter X needs to go to the event and run it, but she can't bring her kids (or doesn't want to for some child-rearing reason). Bob doesn't really care too much about attending the event, but he's up for babysitting Mary's kids over the weekend in trade for gobbies. Should Mary be allowed to make that trade?

What about a case where Mary needs a write a mod for an event, but she just doesn't have the time. She needs to do dishes and fold laundry. Bob can't write the mod, he's a PC for that event. But he can fold and wash like nobody's business. Can Mary pay him in gobbies in order for the chapter to have a couple more hours of Mary's time?
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No to these two. Ability to do a job isn't doing it. There are plenty of people that I could have on a team who might be willing to volunteer time and not have the time available, or have the time available but not the skills needed. If Mary can't write plot (for any reason), she shouldn't be on the Plot Team.

That said, if Mary's inability to do her job is a one-time ordeal (her babysitter fell through at the last minute and she needs to go to a plot meeting or something), that's fine. Life happens, and we've just got to realize that other things are more important than Alliance. However, if it's a regular problem that prevents her from doing the job, then she's not doing the job and shouldn't have it.
 
To the point about Dragon Stamps:

Interestingly, at the last Symposium a proposal I submitted added more regulation to Dragon Stamps than ever previously existed, and set common standards for the rewards given to any/all players for donations (in their various aspects) to national. Awards are based upon money spent, hours worked, donation quality, committee service, etc. In other words, there are no "favorites" or "secret methods" behind awarding Dragon Stamps - the owners are well aware of how awards are given and approved the process via vote.. which, again, is a new level of transparency in the organization. Is everyone always happy with what they're awarded? Certainly not, but unlike awarding Goblin Stamps at a local chapter we don't have flexibility at National to award more DS to hit someone's "satisfaction threshold" on a donation - the system is the system and folks that get involved have the option to opt out if they feel the system is not to their liking.

While I understand that being outside a process (as the folks not immediately involved often are when it comes to policies) may make it appear mysterious, consistently disparaging "the way things are" or those mysterious "higher powers" and bringing constant sarcasm to the table doesn't exactly make folks more interested in working with you - it just makes you seem hostile and abrasive. That may not be your intent, and perhaps you're delightfully ironic and witty with these remarks in person, but keep in mind that this forum doesn't convey tone.

Wraith, is there anything you like or could praise about our organization in any of these conversations on the forums? It does become harder to take someone's complaints seriously when ALL they do is complain and submit claim after claim that well-intended volunteers and hard-working owners are somehow out to make everything less fun or fair for the players. It's just as easy to say "thanks for your work" or "I like that" as it is to say: "you know, I think this could use a little work..." - and as a side note, none of those statements require veiled innuendo or sarcasm, and can be taken in a spirit of helpful debate rather than more barbed attacks at the volunteers from National or the people that run chapters locally.
 
Morganne said:
Wraith, is there anything you like or could praise about our organization in any of these conversations on the forums? It does become harder to take someone's complaints seriously when ALL they do is complain and submit claim after claim that well-intended volunteers and hard-working owners are somehow out to make everything less fun or fair for the players. It's just as easy to say "thanks for your work" or "I like that" as it is to say: "you know, I think this could use a little work..." - and as a side note, none of those statements require veiled innuendo or sarcasm, and can be taken in a spirit of helpful debate rather than more barbed attacks at the volunteers from National or the people that run chapters locally.
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As one who is often seen the same way, I'd like to put in my two cents as well. None of this is suppose to answer for Wraith but the comment seemed to hit home for me.

First off, I have a great many things I like about the system, games, players and staff. If you'd like a short list, it is:
-Freedom to travel to chapters as the same character, meeting new people (and characters) and building up a reputation (for good or ill).
-Simplicity of the system makes it easy to play
-Staff of many games work hard to put together games for very little in return (and with some of the comments made here - even more so).
-Players are willing to donate their time and expertise to make the game a better one for everyone.

However, there are times when the above list isn't 100% true and often have me scratching my head. Sometimes what seems like a very logical solution or procedure isn't taken and I voice that question. And like you had mentioned, in this medium sometimes tone is hard to come by and understand.

I never think that the staff or volunteers are out to make things 'less fun' for other players. In fact, just the opposite - they work hard to try and make it more fun. However, sometimes I feel that they are either working in the wrong direction or approach to doing it. It doesn't matter how hard you work with that herring, you're never going to cut down the tree. Trouble is, I often have a hard time finding a way to point that out without it sounding like an attack. Whereas I truly appreciate someone working their arms raw with that herring I'd rather they used at least a hatchet.

And the reason that I tend to chime in or start threads that are negative towards this game/staff/players is that it is in those threads where clarification and improvements can be made. If I should post here every so often about how I like Alliance, I'll be happy to do so. But I'd say that my voicing of the good and fun within Alliance is done so via my payment and attendance at events - including taking those 12+ hour drives to some chapters to play in them. Money, gas and time is precious these days for me and the fact that I'm willing to continue to play in the games despite these issues should show that I am actually supporting these games and what they stand for.
 
There is quite a bit I like about the game, or I'd obviously have stopped caring enough to debate it long before now. ;) There are a lot of folks who put a great deal of their effort and attention into it, and I appreciate that, even when I can't play as often as I like.

A lot of why you will see me come off as negative here is simply because a great deal of policy and rules as seen from the limited perspective of a player who is not privy to what goes on at the Owners' level do not logically follow. For all your talk of transparency, most of the policy (for things like DS awards, to use your own example) are simply not available to the average player. For example, as we discussed in this very thread : Goblin Stamp issuance is essentially entirely up to the chapters, as is how they allow said GS to be used. This creates in-game advantages that are mandated to be Local Chapter Only, as they do not come from the Treasure Policy designed to keep the game on a more or less relatively equal level across the chapters.

This is pretty straightforward logic, but let's take it another step. Items created via GS expenditure are, as far as I'm aware, mandated to be LCO. Chapters are fully allowed to refuse to allow any LCO item to travel. You can purchase blankets with GS. Does this not essentially create an LCO character, which could, in turn, be refused by other chapters?

As evidenced by the ongoing debate here, and in the rules and ARC sections of the boards, there is a great deal about our rules and policy that is either unclear, contradictory, unavailable to players, or just plain poorly written. I come off as negative quite often because I tend to call out things that, to me, show the system is not working as intended, in hopes that bringing them to the attention of people actually in a position to do something about them will lead to positive change rather than stagnation or more rules releases that require masses of errata.

You will see me chime in on game balance a lot, simply because it is the thing that I see most often drive out new players and leave long-term ones jaded and uninterested, and one of the few that we can and should be working to fix via the rules before we reach a state where the only viable fix requires a playerbase wipe or factioning off another LARP the way the Alliance/National split did.


Heck, you want a nice positive and friendly suggestion? Put a wiki up on the alliancelarp.com server and populate it with both publicly available in-game info on the lands and characters and OOG rules errata, policy documents, and explanations in a nice easily indexed format. There's transparency and a one-stop shop to let chapters and players show off their awesome worldbuilding and characters in one swell foop.
 
Goblin Stamp issuance is essentially entirely up to the chapters, as is how they allow said GS to be used. This creates in-game advantages that are mandated to be Local Chapter Only, as they do not come from the Treasure Policy designed to keep the game on a more or less relatively equal level across the chapters.

This is pretty straightforward logic, but let's take it another step. Items created via GS expenditure are, as far as I'm aware, mandated to be LCO. Chapters are fully allowed to refuse to allow any LCO item to travel. You can purchase blankets with GS. Does this not essentially create an LCO character, which could, in turn, be refused by other chapters?
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There is very little that has to do with logic when it comes to game design; even when it comes to game mechanics, choices are often made because that is how the designers want things to work, not because it has to make any sort of logical sense. I am sure they have some great logic behind it, but if I had to hazard a guess, I would guess that the framework for the transfer policy was to allow as many players as they could to have more fun by being allowed to transfer as many items between chapters as they could.

They probably ran into, or saw a problem with, various items that were created for local chapter effects and plots, that could and would seriously interfere with other chapters and their campaigns, characters, and even loot distribution.

So they decided that, for the good of the game, items created via goblin stamps would be LCO, and that those items would only be transferable in/out at the discretion of Plot (and or the owner).

Why are LCO items purchased with LCO goblins stamps not transferable (or up to the discretion of plot teams)? Because that is the way the owners wanted it to work, for the good of the game.

Why are characters allowed to transfer? Because that gives players the ability to transfer characters between chapters so that they can have more fun, for the good of the game.

I think you just need to be careful where and how you throw around the "logic" attack, especially for a game, and even more especially for a game that isn't played by robots, unless you're in a golem, in which case, Spellstrike Subjugate? :noway:
 
Avaran said:
There is very little that has to do with logic when it comes to game design; even when it comes to game mechanics, choices are often made because that is how the designers want things to work, not because it has to make any sort of logical sense.
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It should also be remembered that the rules and policies of our game are made by committees and voted on. Just like in our government, this means that it's not always done as one big package, but instead piecemeal. It is subject to change whenever new people come in, and it is the result often of compromises that are weaker than the individual proposals would have been on their own.

That is one of the disadvantages of democracy.

Of course, the advantage is that different voices can be heard and, technically, all players are represented.
 
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