Charging for rulebooks

[evi1r0n]

I know this discussion has come up before but we are an ever evolving, ever growing game; so I feel it's pertinent to occasionally discuss things that may have been discussed a while ago.

I was curious about the communities opinion on charging for our rule book. We have had a number of new players either deterred or just not read the book before showing up, due to us being one of the only games in the NW that charges for our rule book. Now I totally get charging for a bound physical copy but the e-book?

I know, currently, Mike has a publishing deal but is that something needed for future editions of the book? Are we locked into this model? There are games in our area with larger attendances, better profits, and inferior rule books but the books are free and that's a selling point. I have also seen fantastic rulebooks with more cohesive rules and better formatting that were free, so the "it looks professional", doesn't work for me. We also add a lot of "fluff" (like the tabletop section) to make it a larger book.

I have literally been laughed at by prospective players (who are also experience LARPers) when I mentioned that the Alliance e-book "only being 6 bucks". I don't know if it's common on the EC for games to charge for their books but I can't find any NW games that charge for e-versions.

Here's my idea (if it even works): We make the next iteration of the rule book free for e-copies. We use a a print on demand service (like Drivethrurpg or something) for those who want dead tree version. We cut the fluff and make the book shorter and easier to navigate. What do you all think of that?

*Note this isn't meant as an insult to anyone, seriously. I love Alliance and only wish to see it succeed.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

I agree without any real reservation.

 

[Lurin]

In my mind if people are literally laughing at a $6 charge, I don't think they have the tact to be a good perspective player anyway. Outside of that, yes this comes up fairly often, no Mike who owns the copyright (and by contract with his publisher probably can't give it away at any rate) has not been swayed by the theory that people not paying $6 of having to borrow a copy from a friend to check out will suddenly lead to large numbers of people excited to pay ten times that for an event.

If you really want something that I think would convert a lot of interested folks into coming, a full and complete wardrobe for new players that is in good condition and could look cool. I think that's far more often the case.

As to experience larpers from other games, it doesn't really translate well, how often have you gone to play <insert local random game here> because of your alliance years? Usually it's infrequent, and the folks that do show up want to spread the gospel of their game (which is okay I suppose, but doesn't really bolster ours any, even though the head count creeps up for an event or two)

 

[Alavatar]

As to experience larpers from other games, it doesn't really translate well, how often have you gone to play <insert local random game here> because of your alliance years? Usually it's infrequent, and the folks that do show up want to spread the gospel of their game (which is okay I suppose, but doesn't really bolster ours any, even though the head count creeps up for an event or two)

In the NW the LARPer community is pretty friendly and shared among LARP games. We have many players in our Seattle chapter that play 2 or 3 other LARPs on top of Alliance games. We had a couple players that were actually playing 6+ LARPs at one time. And these are consistent players, not just a bunch of people coming to play one event to advertise their own game.

That said, I concur with Ron. Almost all of the LARPs in the NW have freely available rules, usually electronically. These other LARPs have more players than us (even though we are averaging 80+ players an event), are well geared (i.e. they have their own awesome costuming), well run, and as such are able to offer lower prices per game (primarily because they have more players, don't have to pay royalties, haven't had as much overhead costs, and cut their margins pretty dang thin).

Most LARPers here in the NW (not all) are almost always trying to find ways to spend more money on garb and props which means less money is available for extraneous things like paying for a *.pdf. If we can reduce costs to our playerbase it makes us more attractive to other experienced LARPers.

 

[evi1r0n]

In my mind if people are literally laughing at a $6 charge, I don't think they have the tact to be a good perspective player anyway.

I would have to disagree with you there... I don't think you know any of the people I am referring to, so that's a pretty harsh judgement. I play LARPs with these people and they would be an asset to Alliance. They are game runners, game creators, talented role-players, and friends to many people at Alliance Seattle and Oregon.

We are the ONLY game that charges for a rule book in these parts, so people are taken back by it. They don't laugh maliciously. They laugh because it seems silly to not allow people to read the game book before they make a $50+ commitment to come to a game, when every other game in the area has there materials available for free.

 

[Gilwing]

Got to agree with you Ron. I was one of the many people that started a thread just like this. I'm on the EC and there are several LARPS that have free rulebooks on there websites. To me it just sound bad for an interested party to come up ask how the game is and get a..."buy the rule book". It makes it seem like we are just looking for money.

 

[obcidian_bandit]

In my mind if people are literally laughing at a $6 charge, I don't think they have the tact to be a good perspective player anyway.

I think that this actually works the other way around.

Consider this: You're hanging out with some friends, and one guy you don't really know says, "Hey, let's go over to my place for some XBox." "Sure," you say. However, just as you're about to leave, this guy says, "Oh, I'm gonna need you to chip in like $1.50 for using the controller."

The $1.50 isn't the problem, you've got that rolling around your ashtray, it's this guy's attitude that to come play with him, you've got to pay a nuisance fee. That might sway me from playing with that guy. That's what sways people from playing our game in our area.

There are ~10ish 'major' boffer Larps in our area, none of which charge for their rules. I've played most of them. We're one of the largest (SEA averages about 80 players), but there's one that averages about the same size that we do which occasionally swells to much larger (every once in a while they break 100). It's a very different game (it's a Dark Ages WoD inspired game), but they've got a free rulebook, start people at "useful" level (like most WoD games), and have a very different structure. We get about a 10 person crossover consistently, with probably 20+ people who have tried one game or the other and regularly play their original game most. We've had a few converts each way. We don't lose people because our rulebook costs money, but we do pick up that jerk label for charging for it, which dissuades people far more than the $6 does. Costuming isn't a major issue for the people that we'd pull from those games, some of them have been LARPing for 10 years.

We do get people that balk at the cost of our games, but we're also one of the more expensive games in the area at $45 to play (if you've pre-paid/registered). We've got more NPCs than pretty much every other game, better sites than most of them, and better props/costuming than most of them, so I'm comfortable with that barrier; people can actually see the difference that the extra $10-15 makes in our game. There's no tangible benefit to the $6 you shell out for the rulebook. There are other games with better rules, better editing, and better formatting than what you can find in our book. We don't have anything to offer for that money; it's just an additional entry barrier that carries a sour taste.

As to experience larpers from other games, it doesn't really translate well, how often have you gone to play <insert local random game here> because of your alliance years? Usually it's infrequent, and the folks that do show up want to spread the gospel of their game (which is okay I suppose, but doesn't really bolster ours any, even though the head count creeps up for an event or two)

I play another Larp about twice a year. Honestly, between running Plot in SEA and PCing in OR, that's really all I've got time for, but I manage to sneak in other games semi-regularly (I think I'm doing 4 this year, but I only did 1 last year, so it evens out). I also make a point of trying the games in my area. Sometimes they've got good ideas that we can use, sometimes there's cool people, and sometimes it's just fun to try out a new game. Occasionally we'll pull people from other games; we actually get quite a bit of cross play from 2-3 of the games in our area (mostly from the one I mentioned earlier, but there's others, too). Every once in a while we'll get Guy Who is Only There to Pull People to His Game, and that guy almost never comes back and usually complains that no one wanted to hang out with him after he kept dropping OOG to push his game. That Guy is the minority though, most people understand that you don't get players by being a nuisance. I understand that that's not everyone's experience, but we've also got a pretty wide Larp community out here. Once people started the interpersonal web of game-game connections by visiting each others Larps and meeting cool people OOG, the community really opened up, and that made a huge difference in our numbers a few years ago. Chances are that most people at your neighborhood game aren't That Pushy Guy, but I've met groups that had more than their share, so I understand if your local group is like that, it's just not my overall experience.

 

[evi1r0n]

To me it just sound bad for an interested party to come up ask how the game is and get a..."buy the rule book". It makes it seem like we are just looking for money.

Nailed it!!! :thumbsup: That's where folks are put off. We can't just give out all the information in the rule book, due to copyright issues. So when I say to someone interested in LARPing or Alliance, "check out our rule book, that'll be 6 bucks," and every other game says "check out the rule book, it's on our website for free," it puts our recruitment at a disadvantage.

Luckily, the NW an amazing community of LARPers that play or at least try many of the local games. Heck, we even have a Wizard of Oz based LARP starting in the area that is going to pull 50+ at their first event, just from the pool of active LARPers. The creator of that game plays Alliance 2-3 times a year and really doesn't advertise his games (he owns/runs a couple). I advertise his games more than he does. That's the norm with the cross game players. Like most of us, he plays because LARPing is fun.

 

[Draven]

In my mind if people are literally laughing at a $6 charge, I don't think they have the tact to be a good perspective player anyway.

I think that's a pretty inaccurate blanket statement. I'm one of those players, and I'm enjoying my 2nd year of Alliance.

 

[Mike Ventrella]

One of the goals is to get that book available to as many people as possible. In order to do that I have a publisher who puts it on his web page and promotes it. People who may never have heard of a LARP see it and may be interested.

Further, he makes sure it is available through the entire world on every single ebook store out there. Seriously, go to any book store on line and do a search and you will find our Rule Book. Try that with any other LARP.

He's not going to do that for free.

I am actually kind of astounded how people will spend $60 for an event, contribute more for a private room or for food, spend $50 on gas to get to the event, spend another $200 on their costume, and balk at $6 for a book that will help them enjoy the event.

 

[prashka]

But, Mike, that's not the order in which it happens.

Once people are sold on the game, they will dump whatever money they want into it. I'm one of those people. I was a HARD sell. I did not have any interest in the game at all when I started because of bad experiences with other larps. And I knee a bunch of people who were playing. I made my first costume on the cheap, balked at the price I was asked to pay to attend, and flat refused to buy the rule book. I used my friend's instead, because I wasn't sold and didn't want to make that investment since I was pretty sure I want coming back.

Once I got to site, I was sold. 3 years later, the two people who dragged me kicking and screaming no longer play, and I am head of logistics.

It isn't about the cost, it's about the sales pitch, imo. It is easier to sell the game when it costs nothing to look at the rule book. once the player is sold, they will shell out. it is nigh impossible to sell someone on the pitch "oh man, that is NOTHING compared to what you will be spending to play!"

 

[obcidian_bandit]

One of the goals is to get that book available to as many people as possible. In order to do that I have a publisher who puts it on his web page and promotes it. People who may never have heard of a LARP see it and may be interested.

Do you have any evidence to support that this has ever happened? Over the years, we've gotten a couple of people who started playing our game because they googled "Larp" in our area and tried us because our name starts with an A and was at the top of some list. I've never heard of anyone who said "I looked online for larp rulebooks, decided that I really wanted to pay money for one, so I bought this one." I have met plenty of people who said "I googled larp rulebooks and downloaded a free one, then played that game first."

Your model for that doesn't make any sense. Why would someone decide to pay money for something that they could get for free? Why do you feel it better to shell out cash for a game that you don't know that you want to play than to not pay for a game that you don't know you want to play? Wouldn't you be much more likely to look at rules that were freely available when trying to decide what game to play (based on rules alone, apparently) then to decide "I've never heard of this group, let me give them my money."

Further, he makes sure it is available through the entire world on every single ebook store out there. Seriously, go to any book store on line and do a search and you will find our Rule Book. Try that with any other LARP.

Who cares? I guess that's my real point here. Who cares if it's on 10,000 websites, or if it's just on one? We point everyone to the Double Dragon site on the webpage. It's a PDF that just about anyone can download on to just about anything. There are a couple of other versions for people who can't pdf. Put it on the Alliance national website and all of the chapters will direct their traffic there to download it. I bet the total number of people who downloaded the book without playing the game is less than 10. It has no broad public appeal; it is only of use to a very specific audience, and only those people are looking to download it. If we tell them exactly where to find it, it doesn't matter that they can go on abunchofebooksthatnoonereads.com and can still find it.

Google LARP and grab the first 10 games that come up. I bet you can find all of their rulebooks easier than ours, because they're free and posted directly on their websites. That's where I look first, not on Amazon, because that's what makes sense.

I am actually kind of astounded how people will spend $60 for an event, contribute more for a private room or for food, spend $50 on gas to get to the event, spend another $200 on their costume, and balk at $6 for a book that will help them enjoy the event.

It's still not the money (see posts above), it's the nuisance fee and the fact that it makes us look bad.

 

[Mike Ventrella]

Please: I beg all of you:

Be condescending to me and treat me like an idiot who has never considered this before. Believe me, it is the best way to get me to see your views and ponder them, because everyone loves to be insulted.

 

[Undrask]

I am actually kind of astounded how people will spend $60 for an event, contribute more for a private room or for food, spend $50 on gas to get to the event, spend another $200 on their costume, and balk at $6 for a book that will help them enjoy the event.

This.

 

[Lurin]

One of the goals is to get that book available to as many people as possible. In order to do that I have a publisher who puts it on his web page and promotes it. People who may never have heard of a LARP see it and may be interested.

Do you have any evidence to support that this has ever happened? Over the years, we've gotten a couple of people who started playing our game because they googled "Larp" in our area and tried us because our name starts with an A and was at the top of some list. I've never heard of anyone who said "I looked online for larp rulebooks, decided that I really wanted to pay money for one, so I bought this one." I have met plenty of people who said "I googled larp rulebooks and downloaded a free one, then played that game first."

Interestingly enough, while I actually agree that the fact that it's universally searchable is probably not a major factor, I have at least seen this happen. There was a gaming club down in St.Olaf here in Minnesota that desired to try this 'larping thing' and did a search, found our book which appeared 'better' compared to the freebies out there, bought a few copies and ran games. (Granted they played for free in their own club, and leveled rather quickly playing twice a week). This led them to come try out what was then the Minnesota Alliance game (this was before there was 2 Minnesota Games,and well before there was one again) We had about a dozen folks come out to play, they were college kids with all the cash restrictions that come from it.

In the end we netted a small number of long term players (Including that Crazy Guy that Plays Eldarion/Quyri) that still play to this day. Would this still be the case without the boosted search engine? Who knows, clearly they would have picked some system to use and in fact the majority of those players continued to play only locally in the college and developed their own modified system to play.

I dunno when I got involved I borrowed a book to read through and was happy to pay for my own book at my first game.

Next up, let's take a breath and chill out a bit, What if we instead developed a limited version of the rule book (such as a preview) that WAS free and didn't infringe on any copyrights? I'll bet we could come up with a 15 page Mini-rule book that has enough of the rules to give people a good overview, but not all the tables, build rates etc. In that case we might get the best of both worlds. Folks would have somewhere to point folks for free/things to hand out, but the full book would still cost money. We could add a page in the back of the free electronic version with local chapters and blurbs inside the free handbook such as "Until you have your own copy of full rule book (available here blah blah blah), Your local chapter will be happy to help you design your character and spend your initial build points"

 

[obcidian_bandit]

Please: I beg all of you:

Be condescending to me and treat me like an idiot who has never considered this before. Believe me, it is the best way to get me to see your views and ponder them, because everyone loves to be insulted.

I'll start being condescending if it'll help you (I guess you're free to read it into whatever posts you like, but there wasn't any condescension in my preceding post). I was hoping you might be able to present a sound argument for your model. Since you're responding with sarcasm, I'm left to assume that you don't have one. If you'd like to get off your high horse and actually attempt to explain your position, I welcome it. If you feel like I'm making you look dumb after refuting what you started with, maybe you should consider that your points aren't that sound rather than blame the messenger.

 

[obcidian_bandit]

Next up, let's take a breath and chill out a bit,

I'm totally chill, FYI. The only thing that's remotely caused me not to be chill on this board for the last few months has been Mike (above) reading context into my posts that wasn't there; I realized a few months ago that people's own bias is 90% of what gets me into trouble on these boards, so even just disagreeing with someone makes them think I'm yelling at them or something. I don't get it.

Anyways:

What if we instead developed a limited version of the rule book (such as a preview) that WAS free and didn't infringe on any copyrights? I'll bet we could come up with a 15 page Mini-rule book that has enough of the rules to give people a good overview, but not all the tables, build rates etc. In that case we might get the best of both worlds.

Boom! Money where my (your?) mouth is: Unpublished Quick Start rules, developed initially for our new NPCs in NPC camp, but written in general form.

 

[Mike Ventrella]

There are some very good comments here, and they are worth considering, but there are still things to consider: I'll need to know if this will cost us extra from our web host, for instance (I'm no expert in these things).

Being a lawyer, I respond well to thought-out debate, but not "How come you're too stupid to see this" responses. If I read more into the comments than was intended, forgive me.

My goal has always been to be THE professional LARP, with good looking NPCs, newsletters, Players Guides, Rule Books and so on. I had been trying to get our books distributed through the gaming stores and so making them look great and be available online was a way to get that goal as well (because that's also a way to get people to find out about us and maybe open chapters in other areas and so on). Having actual books to show people at conventions and events also makes us look damned professional, too. And believe it or not, we do sell at least a dozen or so paperback books a month through Amazon.

But there are some good arguments for just saying "We need to make this as available as possible to as many people as possible" and thus give it away. And I will be discussing this with the Owners and others. The "mini Rule Book" idea has been around for a long time and was waiting for the updated web page, which never seems to happen.

But please, don't talk down to me when making your presentation.

 

[SkollWolfrun]

15-20 years ago: having a hard copy rule book was pretty necessary. But with the rise of online publishing, e-readers, tablets, etc (and reduction in costs) they have become more of an additional helper.

I personally like the idea of a short-hand rulebook. As is, I have printed off various charts and put them into a Sideline Coach for my wrist.

 

[obcidian_bandit]

Thank you, I appreciate that. Really. (To be clear, I was being snarky in my second post, so I apologize for that.)

there are still things to consider: I'll need to know if this will cost us extra from our web host, for instance (I'm no expert in these things).

That's true, I'm sure it probably would. I don't think that it's likely to be a prohibitive increase, but it would certainly increase traffic.

My goal has always been to be THE professional LARP, with good looking NPCs, newsletters, Players Guides, Rule Books and so on. I had been trying to get our books distributed through the gaming stores and so making them look great and be available online was a way to get that goal as well (because that's also a way to get people to find out about us and maybe open chapters in other areas and so on). Having actual books to show people at conventions and events also makes us look damned professional, too.

I don't disagree. Having a good looking physical book definitely helps, and we sell them at conventions and at the door. I think having a physical book available is still something that people want and would pay for.

And believe it or not, we do sell at least a dozen or so paperback books a month through Amazon.

I do believe it, but that's sort of one of the points I was talking about before. I bet you sell a few each month through Amazon, but if the publisher puts the books on 700 websites that don't actually sell any of them, is that really a benefit? I can appreciate that they put work into it, but if it doesn't pay off for us, why keep paying them to do it?

The "mini Rule Book" idea has been around for a long time and was waiting for the updated web page, which never seems to happen.

I did it (see above post). I hate the "Oh, yeah, we'll totally do that one day," model.