Craftsman versus production-skills

[Cúangol]

Hi,

By my calculations, it looks like Craftsman is a money-making skill, while most of the production skills are RP skills. Please convince me otherwise

Assumptions:
1) Production items are sold for double cost (Justification: I've never seen someone charge more in the three chapters I've played at, and indeed I've heard of people selling them back to logistics at cost, and I've seen a lot of stuff given away.)

2) Characters are not MWE or Dwarf Blacksmith. But I will make some notes about how it changes.

3) Even if a producer uses his/her own item, I consider the cost to be the same (since it is the amount of lost profit).

4) Workshops cost 10 gold and are used for 4 events per year (some chapters only have 4 per year, some have events at nonstandard locations which prohibit workshop use, and some players don't play every game).

5) I am NOT including costs for pre-requisite skills (read/write, etc). My case would be even stronger with them...


Craftsman: 1 silver per 2 build. [Craftsman MWE: 1 silver per build]

Production:
* Less than 10: 5 copper per 3 build [Dwarf: 5 copper per 2 build]. [Calculation: One batch gives 1 silver of value but costs 5 copper to produce, and 10-5=5.]
* Less than 10, with double production from workshop: 1 silver per 3 build [Dwarf: 1 silver per 2 build, like craftsman]
* At least 10: 8 copper per 3 build [Dwarf: 8 copper per 2 build]. [Calculation: First batch costs 4, second costs 8. Total worth 20 copper. 20-4-8=8].
* At least 10, with double production from workshop: 16 copper per 3 build [Dwarf: 16 copper per 2 build].


Comparisons of profits per 30 build (30 is used for comparison since it is the least common multiple of 2 and 3):
Craftsman: 15 silver per day
Production <10: 5 silver per day [Dwarf: 7.5 silver per day]
Production <10, with workshop: 10 silver per day, will never pay off workshop cost in comparison to craftsman [Dwarf: 15 silver per day, will also never pay off workshop cost]
Production >10: 8 silver per day [Dwarf: 12 silver per day]
Production >10, with workshop: 16 silver per day, will take 12.5 years to break even on the cost of the workshop. [Dwarf: 24 silver per day, will pay off the workshop in 6 events and start making big bucks.]

Other revenue:
* Alchemy: anyone with Alchemy 1 and a lab can apply weapon coatings to arrows/bolts at double effectiveness. I don't know what the standard charge of this is, but there is no cost to the alchemist.
* Blacksmithing: Strengthening and silvering weapons has additional costs (50 silver for strengthening, 15 silver for silvering for weapons - or 1 per arrow/bolt), with no added production cost. Charging double cost would significantly increase income.
* Any others I'm missing?

Conclusions:
A) Since most characters don't last 12.5 years, it is more profitable to be a craftsman than a producer (unless you are a dwarf blacksmith). However, having a production skill is more of a defining RP factor in your character since you may be selling things!
B) Producers who want money in addition to RP should increase their prices. For example, 2.5 times production cost would give a journeyman with a workshop 26 silver per day, which could pay off the lab costs in a year. [Cost 4 for first batch, 8 for second, 12 for third; Price 15 for each; Profit 45-4-8-12=26 copper per 3 build]

Food for thought: is "having access to these items" worth the difference? Or is the 100 production points of items per event (from goblin stamps from $10 of food donations) enough for most players? For some players, it may even be enough to sell these 100 pp of items for 2 gold per event...

I'd like to hear your thoughts!

 

[OrcFighterFTW]

Conclusions:
A) Since most characters don't last 12.5 years, it is more profitable to be a craftsman than a producer (unless you are a dwarf blacksmith). However, having a production skill is more of a defining RP factor in your character since you may be selling things!
B) Producers who want money in addition to RP should increase their prices. For example, 2.5 times production cost would give a journeyman with a workshop 26 silver per day, which could pay off the lab costs in a year. [Cost 4 for first batch, 8 for second, 12 for third; Price 15 for each; Profit 45-4-8-12=26 copper per 3 build]

To address your conclusions based on my experience:
A) This past season, I spirit forged my 14th level artisan (master potion maker) to a fighter because it is more profitable to just kill stuff and loot them than it is to be a producer or artisan. Add the RP at no cost to build while racking up those proficiencies or backstabs.
B) I charged only 2.2 times the base, and less for bulk orders, and players from MULTIPLE chapters still claimed "I'm not paying that! It only costs x to make!" and when I did make a sale, my character gained an illogical reputation for "ripping people off."

Overall the entire PC production system/economy/artisan class needs fixing. I tried making a thread* about it last year, but was met with so much resistance in posts from the Powers That Be, including one who claimed Artisan shouldn't even be a serious PC class, that I gave up trying to help fix it. But good luck to you.

*http://alliancelarp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=214&t=14273

 

[obcidian_bandit]

To play a Crafter you need Plot's support. You can't sell things at 2.5 cost if some NPC is selling at 2x cost. You can sell things at 2.5x cost if all of the NPCs sell at 2.6 or greater cost, and if some things aren't available via NPCs. Most NPCs in our chapter sell things at 3x cost, and there's an NPC merchant group in our neighboring chapter that sells things at 5x cost, and people buy things from both groups, but go to PCs when they can.

The problem is that the people that go the crafting route basically have to sell to lowbies, since they have the most expendable resource problems, and then those folk are limited by the amount of coin that they have. To actually make significant money as a merchant, you need to completely circumvent the game economy and sell food. It's unfortunate, but it's just how it is. We could fix the economy, but no one actually wants to do that, since it's another 'taking everyone down a couple notches' thing, and those are super unpopular.

 

[evi1r0n]

To play a Crafter you need Plot's support. You can't sell things at 2.5 cost if some NPC is selling at 2x cost. You can sell things at 2.5x cost if all of the NPCs sell at 2.6 or greater cost, and if some things aren't available via NPCs. Most NPCs in our chapter sell things at 3x cost, and there's an NPC merchant group in our neighboring chapter that sells things at 5x cost, and people buy things from both groups, but go to PCs when they can.

The problem is that the people that go the crafting route basically have to sell to lowbies, since they have the most expendable resource problems, and then those folk are limited by the amount of coin that they have. To actually make significant money as a merchant, you need to completely circumvent the game economy and sell food. It's unfortunate, but it's just how it is. We could fix the economy, but no one actually wants to do that, since it's another 'taking everyone down a couple notches' thing, and those are super unpopular.

+1
In Alliance OR we have around 5 dedicated merchant characters. 3 of which are making it rich on production items alone. Only 1 is a dwarven blacksmith. As Matt said, "it takes plots support". Having the rip off artist NPC merchants really pushes people to seek out PC merchants (an joyfully pay) 2-2.5x production.

There is also the tangible benefits from mastering some production skills. Our blacksmith is the mobile armor healer in most battles.

 

[Wraith]

The mastery benefits help, but the viability of production is also badly hurt by the fact that the entire magic item system is essentially designed to obsolete the need for production items. Consumables like potions and scrolls still see some sales, but it is far, far cheaper to get Render Indestructible cast on your weapons and armor than to replace them, and such things have many benefits that would still make them the choice even if they weren't less expensive.

 

[markusdark]

Assuming no other variables are put forth and the ones you have are held fast, then yes, it is better to be a craftsman than a producer. However there are a multitude of variables that can come into play that would change the numbers for producers in any number of ways. Craftsmen get 1 silver per level, period. There is no way that I'm aware of to change this. Craftsman levels have a set amount of money. Producer levels have a set number of production points whose value can change due to 'environmental conditions'.

 

[Gilwing]

supply and demand my friends, supply and demand.

 

[Lurin]

As someone that has been playing an artisan very heavily the last year, I find my income has become extremely dependant on the roleplay behind crafting the goods. Here is a rough experience as I can remeber it, as a note I do not have merchanting (he's a Kin, didn't really fit my concept).

First Two Games - Widely ignored (as far as crafting goes) for the first couple of games, sold a few small orders of CLW at my standard rate (2x production)
Third Game - First game with orders pre-game, CLWs (alch+potions) sell easily, scrolls go to a few specific people, blacksmithing was filled with my arrow/bolt needs (he's an archer) and a few small weapon orders, Local dwarves start grumbling.
Fourth - Sixth game - Order pipeline is generally full as skills rise and starting going from 5s to 10 ranks. Tips become common, a habit of bidding 2.2 catches on as a character quirk often making many players demand to pay 10% more, majority of customers start rounding up their bills. Income increases further by the Rabbitkin habitually buying production out of town/group splits (making them easier, providing enough silver to break things up etc.) at cost for eventual resale.

All told, the majority of the 'higher' income came from people knowing/enjoying the character (even if they just enjoy being annoyed by him) and by serving as a point of contact to easily sell things. During this time much of his money has been spent on less wanted ritual scrolls (seek the whole, gift of life etc.), random gifts, and intentionally avoid buying many components (aside from spell crafting seek the whole to look for supplies) or MI/rit scrolls to resell so as not to step on other folks toes.

Traveling, which I've started doing more recently, becomes much tougher I've found that in many chapters (mostly on the east coast) the established teams will be very vocal about how they can get all the production they need/want (which isn't much usually anyway) at 10% above cost or less. The midwest bigger groups tend to be closer to the 'I'd buy a big order if I got a huge discount' type which is very similar, but a different flavor. In both areas there are always a range of low-mid level players that will have some needs, and some items such as Purify potions/dispel scrolls are comparably easier to sell but margins are lower as a rule anywhere you don't show up twice a year in my experience (ie people don't really know/care about your toon yet.

Finally I have found a very strong current lately of Plot Teams working to step beyond the existing crafting systems, efforts ranging from special item drops that can used either to make production items for less cost or the occasional unique one use item. Many of these systems make me wish I could play every chapter often enough to take full advantage. It does feel like a shot to the gut as a 4x craftsman as an artisan when you realize that you have half the usual production (which isn't all that much for the build investment, which is just about 120 build at this point) unless I want to spend 10-40 gold for additinal workshops.

I WILL say, happily, I have yet to encounter an NPC undercutting my prices yet, at home or while traveling and I think most plot teams do a good job of noting big crafters and not stepping on their toes to aggressively.\

So for an executive summary, if you want to make a bunch of coin, you can do so, but crafting skills won't make it for you any faster than general merchanting efforts in game (although it can be fun RP, which is what this game is occasionally about) As a versus Production skill thing...it's chapter and player dependant as crafting can be multiplied in game, but is less consistent.