Crit Attacks and 2 Handed Weapons

Z

Zymm

Newbie
Under the current ruleset, you get 3 pts of damage for every 2 weapon profs. I don't think there is any verbiage regarding 2 handed weapons and critical attacks, because under the current ruleset you can't use multiple crits at the same time.

So, with 2.0 rules, is the intention that you get 3pts for every 2 crits, or does that remain a prof-only thing, or will that apply also to critical attacks? I did not see anything addressing this in the master doc.

"
Critical Attacks and Back Attacks now last 10 minutes against all targets, and may be stacked. For example, if a player has 10 Back Attacks, they may activate all of them at once and call +20 damage from behind or +10 damage with ranged weapons for 10 minutes. A player may activate no more than 10 Critical Attacks and/or 10 Back Attacks at any one time. Players may voluntarily end the 10 minute duration at any time. Players may not activate additional Critical or Back Attacks if they have some already running of the same time (they must “end” the prior batch first). "
 
Someone has suggested in another thread (I believe my thread on Scout archers) that crit attacks only add +1 to two handed weapons, no matter how many you stack. I don't know if this is verified or if the person was speaking from a position of knowledge / authority, but nobody with better knowledge has countermanded the statement for a few days now, so I suspect it is correct.

-MS
 
I made that comment because there is no current language in the playtest rules to suggest that critical attacks behave similarly to weapon profs when it comes to two-handed weapons.

If that wasn't the intent of the owners, then awesome! Two-handers become even cooler!
 
Thanks for the update.

I suspect this is going to have a vastly out of proportion influence on the character build process, as it makes single handed weapons the obvious superior choice in all situations save possibly staff for Oak of the Arcane (given that wands cannot block), while also weakening archery.
 
Don't forget that slay damage will scale from weapon base damage. A slay with a 2H weapon will do 50% more damage than with a 1H weapon. If you want to put out huge hits as a fighter, 2H will do that for you. Will it be enough of a difference? Hard to say without the playtesting. It is something that I personally am very interested in and hope to see more feedback on.
 
Yeah, archery is probably going to take it in the teeth. That's probably ok, though, given how out of control its damage is now. It won't be quite as ubiquitous among fighters, but it also won't go away completely because it's still really effective; you'll probably see a lot of dedicated archers choosing to be prof-fighters (or scouts, see Mike's thread).

I also agree that 2hers are going to suffer, which is a shame because they're already not used enough in our area. The increased slay damage is nice and they'll be good in a prof build, but they really have no place in a crit-fighter build.

I wonder if we'll end up seeing a lot of archers carrying a 2h as back up weapons. That's a hell of a holdout pistol.
 
I'd say probably not, given that it's awkward to switch between the two and longbow-shortsword or shortbow-longsword are both very good defensively.
 
In the PNW we have seen our share of polearm fighters though, obviously, sword and shield is much more common. I suspect that shields will not be as ridiculously good as they are now with the Disarm and Shatter changes coming. Some people might start looking at polearm or two-handed weapons for that reason alone.

If this is something you would like to propose for a change, don't forget to talk to your owner. I can see the merits both ways; those being that two-handed weapons are pretty well out of favor as well as trying to limit damage bloat.
 
One of the most impressive fighter builds I've seen is a guy who fights with a heavy crossbow and a nearly min-length polearm. He hangs out near the healers, spreads some bolts around the field, and if anyone gets close he drops the HXB, pulls the halberd off his back, and takes full advantage of the fact that Confine doesn't conflict with a single healing spell.

Let me echo the above: I want 2H weapons to be an appealing and rewarding option. If they aren't now then they should be improved, whether that's 1.5 crit stacking, allowing for one handed blocking like Staff, some choice 2H only rituals to sweeten the pot, or something else entirely.
 
Unless Spirit Link and Render Indestructible are on the list of rituals that are being removed, I don't see shields going out of style any time soon. Especially with the following :


Stalwart Shield - This Ritual allows the wielder of the shield the Ritual is cast upon to Guard against any Spell, Weapon, Poison, or Elemental Qualifier attack that strikes the shield once per day. They must call 'Guard (Ritual)' when this Ritual is used. This Ritual may not be used against any effect which explicitly lists the abilities that can be used to Guard against it such as Waylay or Massive.
 
Honestly, I see the playtest rules making 2-H weapons more appealing. Getting to a static 10 damage only costs 105 build for a 2-H weapon. On the other hand, it would cost nearly double that (204 build) to do the same for a 1-H weapon. That is a much bigger cost differential than the 75 build vs. 120 build of the current system.

Sure, prof fighters can spend 30 build per combatant to get a 10 point boost (probably to go from 5 to 15), but a 2-H fighter could just as easily be spending only 15 build per combatant to get to the same 15 damage. Even taking into account the higher initial build cost for base damage (105 vs. 54), 2-H weapon fighter basically have the edge after they have approximately 15 critical attacks.

Furthermore, I think people are either misunderstanding how critical attacks work or underestimating how many enemies they fight in a weekend. Critical attacks last for 10 minutes, but only against a single enemy. In any given wave battle on most weekends, as a fighter, I expect to come into contact with 10 - 20 NPCs. If I am using critical attacks on all of them, I am burning through them darn fast. If I'm not, and I am a 1-H fighter, then the 2-H fighter is easily outpacing me in damage.

TLDR: Any build that relies on critical attacks to deal the same damage as 2-H fighters can be built nearly identically by a 2-H fighter for LESS build.

-MS
 
Additionally I would consider that in my experience a weapon and shield or dual wielding combatant tends to land a lot more shots than one with a two handed weapon simply because they can strike while blocking. If I'm landing two hits to a sword and board fighter's three or four, the proficiency differential in build is negligible at best.

That was, as I recall, an influence on making 1.5x profs on two handers in the first place, as the reasons you use them in the real world actually make them more impractical to our game's combat mechanics.
 
(Forgot to quote. In response to critical attacks affecting ALL targets for 10 minutes.)

Well, shucks, my reading comprehension skills are failing today. However, I still stand by the fact that you can create a character that deals the same effective damage with a 2-H weapon as you can with a 1-H weapon at a lower build cost. That excess build can then be spent on one-shot abilities or Wear Extra Armor or Hearty or whatever else you desire, in order to overcome any disadvantage from not having a shield / second weapon.

-MS
 
I find that the advantage of two handed weapons is largely enjoyed or not based on what type of combatant you tend to be.

If you run around a good deal on your own and are getting into a lot of one-on-one fights then you tend to go two weapons or sword and board, usually sword and board.

But if you like sticking with the team to help defend your sides two handed swords/blunts and polearms become a great option for punching out higher damage at lower levels.

In line with us seeming to want to see less of the stuff we see and more of the stuff we don't, we should probably give two handers the 1.5 crit advantage.
 
I obviously can't speak for the playtest writers, but if I had to guess, the reason that critical attacks don't get the 1.5 on 2-H weapons is almost certainly to keep the rule as easy to implement as possible.

For profs, you never need to calculate on the fly. For critical attacks, you obviously do. A 1 to 1 calculation is simple. But a 1.5 to 1 calculation (that involves rounding) is significantly more complicated, especially for new players, or even worse, for NPCs unfamiliar with the card they have just been handed (or combining those, new players that just got handed a NPC card).

I suspect that the playtest team came to the conclusion that simplicity trumped extra benefit here in terms of total value to the game. I personally think the huge advantage that 2-H weapon users now have over 1-H weapon users in terms of the cost of buying profs more than makes up for the mild disadvantage of treating critical attacks identically to them.

-MS
 
I like your reasoning, but then I look at Evade and the proliferation of overlapping 10 minute effects...

Edit : Spelling!
 
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Honestly this isn't something I feel strongly about either way, and was just speculating based on what I've seen so far in playtesting. I'd be fine if it stays as written now, but I also wouldn't balk if it were to change to 1.5 per crit.

The argument that 1 to 1 is simpler to handle on the fly is one I find persuasive, though.
 
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