Cross Chapter Plot : Why doesn't it happen?

Wraith

Virtuoso
So, here's an interesting discussion that's recently come up in another thread. In theory, at least, all of our chapters are on parts of the same world, Fortannis. That said, there seems to be an absolute dearth of plot threads that actually travel across this world.

In practice, we seem to be more akin to the old D&D Spelljammer setting. Many different worlds with similar base physics, but local oddities that can break these rules, and only the select few ever travel between.

If this is the case, why do we bother to tie ourselves to the same world at all? Why not let each chapter simply be it's own place, with the mists allowing magical transport between? After all, no matter how big the bad guy threatening a given chapter this weekend, the way we play means he is clearly a local threat, and escaping him is as simple as taking a walk through the mists. Obviously the mists will prevent anyone from trying to conquer the world as a whole.

Is this the intent we have in playing in a shared world? Or is there an opportunity here for more interesting plots that can travel, allowing us to hook more players into having reasons to interact with PC's from other chapters?
 
It does happen. I guess it depends on your area. The NH, NY and CT chapters are closely knit and have cross chapter plot references but they are also no further than a 4 hour drive between any of them.
 
Indeed. I know they've got stuff going, but my question is why it doesn't really spread on the whole. There were a few mods that theoretically were all lead-ins to the National event last year, but they really weren't relevant to anyone who wasn't going to the event.
 
It's probably because so many chapters already have their own campaign and storyline running that trying to incorporate the story leading up to the national event into theirs would too overwhelming and prevent the plot teams from being able to tell the story they want to tell. It would require large amounts of long distance collaboration between chapters to ensure that nobody is stepping on each others toes. It could make the overall storyline very confusing to players that travel. And allows for a lot of "No, this can't happen here because we fixed that last week over there" scenarios. Regulating story line on the level that would be needed to do this would prevent each chapters plot team from being too creative and imaginative enough to tell the story they want to tell. There can be subtle hints to what is coming at the national event but unless it intermingles with the storylines of each chapter there is also a good chance it will be missed by most of the players.
 
Dom said:
It's probably because so many chapters already have their own campaign and storyline running that trying to incorporate the story leading up to the national event into theirs would too overwhelming and prevent the plot teams from being able to tell the story they want to tell. It would require large amounts of long distance collaboration between chapters to ensure that nobody is stepping on each others toes. It could make the overall storyline very confusing to players that travel. And allows for a lot of "No, this can't happen here because we fixed that last week over there" scenarios. Regulating story line on the level that would be needed to do this would prevent each chapters plot team from being too creative and imaginative enough to tell the story they want to tell. There can be subtle hints to what is coming at the national event but unless it intermingles with the storylines of each chapter there is also a good chance it will be missed by most of the players.


I can only speak from my own perspective since outside of what I've been involved in writing and running, I have no idea how it's gone, but I can say that while your points are reasonable concerns, I've seen little to none of these challenges manifest in our efforts.

1) Having cross chapter plot does not require parity of involvement on both sides; elements of a plotline from another chapter are often enough to spark an interest. For example, we had this battle last November that was the biggest cluster **** I have seen in twelve years of playing, involving the pcs, and npcs from three different chapters, fighting the pcs, and each other, and it was a blast.
It did not take a lot of work, no more than a few emails and a few pcs hoping the fence for one fight. It was meant to give pcs an "OH ****!!!” moment, and to provide a seed for future ties between certain factions across the mists. It didn't make it harder for any one chapter to tell the story they want to tell. It made each npc faction seem more interesting with inherent, subsequent questions like "Why are they here? Who are they working with? Does this mean we can pin these bastards against one another?"

2) It requires phone calls and emails, which do travel long distances, but with shocking efficiency.

3) Initial confusion can sometimes happen, that it true. That is also sometimes the goal. Nothing is more boring than knowing and being able to predict everything in a plotline, IMO. If I can't get my pcs to stay awake at least one night a month, wondering "How/why/what the hell are we going to do about....?!!!" then I need to try harder. Again, IMO.

4) "Regulating story line on the level that would be needed to do this would prevent each chapters plot team from being too creative and imaginative enough to tell the story they want to tell."

I could not disagree more, and I have seen nothing of the sort in our experiences.

Nothing has sparked my creative juices more than working with a bunch of other creative individuals, talking about things one on one or in groups, in person or online, and the best ideas we've come up with over the years were always the result of bouncing our ideas off of the minds of others, and seeing what we come up with. This is the reason I support and push for more cross chapter plot, because the results I've seen have been amazing.
As inane and trite an explanation it may seem, I think simple inertia and fear of the unknown is what keeps more cross chapter plot from happening. It does require a little extra work, but not as much as one might think, and it does require working with staff members with whom you might not be accustomed to working. You have to be a little bit humble and willing to hear and say “I think that might not work, maybe this…?” a few times, but the results have always been worth it, at least for me.
 
On the local level, I agree completely that it is possible because I know it happens. I was referring to a more national level of cross chapter plot encompassing the Alliance as a whole leading up to the national event
 
Ah, I see.

We need more incentive for chapters to get involved in that process. I would love to hear more ideas with how to grant that incentive.

One idea I've been toying around with (which might sound kind of counterintuitive to improving it) is to encourage that we have the national every three years, rather than every two, and to really amp up our efforts in make sure every chapter is somehow involved. I don't know though, could work, might do the opposite. It's really hard to know.

Leadership is key as well, on the local and national level; you need people who have the time, energy and desire to rally the troops and stay on everyone's ***.
 
Distance, relevance, style. Those are the big three reasons I see.

Distance: Not in the "it's too hard to have meetings/exchange ideas/etc" sort of way, either. I'm Head of Plot in Seattle, and live in Corvallis, Oregon, about 200+ miles from our games. Most of my team lives between 1 and 6 hours from each other. We have regular meetings via Skype, collaborate via email, and write almost everything on a private message board. Getting a team to work together across a large distance isn't an issue for us, so I'm sure it can be overcome on even a national level.

What is an issue is chapter location. I play in two chapters regularly, Oregon and Seattle. I run plot in Seattle, and I PC in Oregon. I've played long enough in Oregon that I'm one of 'the main guys' that tends to be 'in the know,' 'in the thick of it,' and 'in up to my neck.' That's where I like to be, and I don't want to be pulled out of that position to run a module, play an NPC, print of extra character cards, or intentionally avoid modules that I would otherwise go on because I 'know too much.' If I was attending a dozen or more events a year, I might be more inclined to do something like that, but I only get to PC 4 about events a year, and I'd like to actually PC them.

That said, our team has run a few things with San Fran, but I don't play there with any frequency. I wouldn't mind being pulled a time or two out of game simply because I'm not playing a character that's involved in their campaign, but if I was, I'd want to do less cross-chapter stuff so that I could keep up my immersion level. I understand that this might not be as big a deal in some of the EC chapters where you can get to 5 chapters in under 4 hours, but I've only got 2 chapters within 14 hours, so it's a bigger deal.

Relevance: Much like the national event, if you're not going to chapter X, cross chapter stuff isn't relevant to you. If you keep it to a mod or two, or a couple of RP encounters with a few PCs, it'll probably be targeted at the people who it is important to, and you might expose some people to a plot that may encourage them to head over to Chapter X, and that's fine. My rule for modules, encounters, and the like is to ensure that the work that goes into something is balanced by the total enjoyment and exposure time that the PCs interact with it. I don't spend 4 hours setting up a trap module for one player, that's a bad use of my time. I will spend 6 hours designing a riddle module that I can run 4 groups of 8 players through, that's a great use of my time. Same opinion holds here. I don't want to spend 3 hours in a meeting with two plot teams, then another couple hours of prep and setup, then a couple more for each plot member and NPC who runs the module, for a total of 30+ hours going into an encounter that only a small handful of people will care about. It's not an efficient use of time.

That may sound a little too 'businessy' for some folk, but I think it's a really good policy. That's not to say that we don't occasionally bend that rule a little, but it's served us well as a guideline thus far. Like other chapters, we occasionally build crazy time-consuming props, but in the example linked, it was used to entertain 60 PCs for 3 hours, so even though it took forever to build, I think it paid off.

Style: There's just some things that I don't want in my chapter, and I'm sure that every plot team has that list. Sometimes chapters are pretty easy going and let in all sorts of things, but some aren't. Sometimes that really impedes cross chapter plot, and sometimes it doesn't. It's not terribly difficult to send an ambassador, or a big bug, or whatever into our chapter right now, our campaign is pretty flexible, but that also won't always be the case. Our campaign is changing, and that's something that happens all over the alliance whenever there's a large staff change, a big plotline ends, or new rules get added in. Suddenly the cross chapter plots may not work, may end up being dealt with differently, and could otherwise be pointed in a completely different direction than one team or the other (or both) intended. While that's not always a bad thing (PCs do it all the time), a sudden jostle like that can suddenly knock things akimbo and really screw something up in an unforeseen ways that then both teams have to address, and those things could influence other plotlines that they weren't intended to or impinge upon stylistic or thematic pillars that the campaign is built on.

If, 'for example,' Deadlands calls us up and says "Hey, how do you feel about Lichy McLicherpants coming over and teaming up with your campaign's Wraith King this event" and we say "yeah sure, send 'im over!" Then suddenly the PCs decide that they're going to, I dunno, drop a True Empowered Haven of the Living on them at the last minute, and we think that it's a really cool way to kill our BBG and totally alter the direction of our campaign, but Deadlands doesn't want McLicherpants to die since they need that guy for next event (he's got to keep the Bauble of Plotiness away from the PCs or something) suddenly there's a problem. Unless they've got a plot person on the scene, they're going to have to deal with whatever we come up with for poor Lichy (which might be something like 49 Destroy Undeads to the face), and they might not have wanted that.

There's plenty of good reasons to do some small stuff, but I think it stands to reason that there's plenty of good reasons not to, as well. Those are the big three I can think of. There's also things like personality differences, too many cooks, etc. I treat cross chapter stuff as sprinkles: They're fancy, but that's not why you chose to play here.
 
To that very well thought out post I reply: we've been doing it, and it's been working.

The concern I recognize as seeming most impenetrable to my "well it's going great for us" counterargument is the distance one: as a person who has PCed roughly 2.5 events total over the past four years, I'm don't feel comfortable answering it from personal experience. I will put on the table that the NH owner, Gary, PCs Caldaria regularly, and Jesse (CT owner) has missed one Deadlands game ever. Both are as deep into plot lines as they choose to be. When it comes time to get collaborative, they work together on those things that are within their mutual plot spheres, and trust their respective staff folk to handle the stuff they cannot collaborate on. Anyone who has played more than one character has been forced into the play knowledge/character knowledge minigame.
 
Is the suggestion merely that small groups of chapters should have more interaction, or that there should be an Alliance-wide plotline put into play?

What do you see as a good example of that?

Just taking a look at the National event I attended - it was fairly self-contained, as far as I could see, and less "cross-chapter" storytelling and more "have a small taste of each chapter". There was this bad guy who somehow summoned up shades of bad guys past, and people had to kill them. The components to defeating him were found in various ways in lots of other chapters. Other than the "let's get components from each of the chapters and hope they make it to the national event" bit, there wasn't much cross-chapter interaction.
 
A national event is a single entity, building from the ground up. It tries to draw from every chapter and it has a limited time to fit everything in.Because its scope is so wide and its space is so narrow, it is going to be unwieldy in the hands of the committee of people trying to run it. The CT/NH joint November event last year had a much smaller scope (2 chapters, plus a little from a third) and a more solid base. Instead of a factory new plot line, it took two existing plot lines which both already had PC interest and investment and interwove them. The results were very strong, and we were still working in committee (three CT plot and three NH worked together as the primary writers/directors). It was certainly bumpy in places, as for a number of those people it was a first time working together. It can only get better with practice.

I'm almost afraid to say it, but from my perspective the biggest block to legitimate cross-chapter plot is plot teams being unwilling to try something new outside their comfort zone.
 
I wonder if it would be possible to build a national event plotline by getting input from each chapter and trying to understand the 'big plots' that are going on at those chapters. It would be cool, and sounds like it would potentially generate more interest if we could somehow put a relevant 'piece' of those (10-15) plot lines into a national event that could really matter to each individual chapter.

Instead of coming up with a story that we want to tell at a national event, and trying to 'hook' interest at individual chapters work the other way around. Each chapter could even drop 'hints' that way without breaking up their normal plotlines and offer lead ups to something that will happen at the national event for that plotline. The idea I have in my head is some sort of 'bonus round' for that plotline for folks that can and want to make it to the national event, and the villan will have something that they talk about having happened at that event.


From what I know of the seminal 'battle' at the join NH/CT (with CR inserted) closer they basically had a large undead nation (from NH), which had a significant 'spectacle' split, a hordge of extra planer bugs (from CT), and someone having hired a huge rolling ball bearing of death (from CR) and mashed all these together into one huge fantastic mele. To sumarize the undead nation split, the bugs showed up, who HATE undead/necromancy AND the PC's (their leader say 'kill everything') and 'someone' hired a Habadasher ball from CR to bounce around causing havoc and it was basically mass chaos.

Imagen if we had 4-5 big bads from each chapter, some of whom would NOT work together somehow ending up on the field of battle with a very differentiated group of PC's from all over the Alliance some of whom would not attack certain 'bads' and some sort of reason to all be going/fighting for something and the chaos/AWESOME that could result... :twisted:

That's my idea in a nutshell. :)
 
Dreamingfurther said:
Instead of coming up with a story that we want to tell at a national event, and trying to 'hook' interest at individual chapters work the other way around.
Each chapter could even drop 'hints' that way without breaking up their normal plotlines and offer lead ups to something that will happen at the national event for that plotline.
I don't understand... how is the first part different from the second part? And isn't that exactly what happened with the National event?
 
As far as I could tell no.

The last national event was about the Rakshasa and how going to bits of different chapters worked to defeat him. However the parts of plotlines from 'other' chapters were just the means to an end (aka the Rakshasa's demise).

What I'm suggesting is having the parts of plotlines from other chapter BE the ends themselves at the national event, and have to BBG's/vilans take something away from their actions at the national event rather than just paying lip service too the individual chapter plots. I can try to explain again more fully if I am still not being clear.
 
If I understand you correctly, I don't know that wrapping up a local plot line at a national event that requires airline tickets to attend is a good way to reward your local PCs for participating.
 
I had a long diatribe written out...but I will be blunt:

If I work on a long story line for months only to get near the end & be met with, 'We are wrapping this up at National' (ie: you have to travel 1,000 miles) I would really have to reconsider my commitment to the game.

Chapters that are within 4-5 hours of one another can wrap stuff up like that, but when you have 1-2 chapters inside of 10+ hours. not so much.
 
I didn't remotely intend to mean that chapters all wrap up their major chapter specific story lines at a national event.

However you could have a significant 'event' in that chapter plotline happen at a national event right? I hope were talking about the same sort of long, arc, possibly multi year chapter plots that don't 'get done' all at once.

Is it really so threatening that something could happen in a chapter specific storyline that only some folks would interact with? I mean even regular players 'miss' single events at their home chapters but that doesn't stop that home chapter plot team from putting on the plot they intended for the weekend. Sometimes even very important things happen to plot lines 'off stage' between events. Something like that could happen at a National event I would think.

I'm just suggesting that the plot of the national event be more about chapter specific plots 'coming there' and having something happen with them rather than just a nationally designed and run plot being the centerpiece. Furthermore something like this would possibly get different character from other chapters interested in plot at a different chapter and promote more cross chapter playing/plot I would hope. As opposed to the national plots lines that I have observed kind of being a thing that is dealt with at that event, and then 'everyone goes home to their own pond' sort of feeling.
 
Just to throw an example out there. The Extra planer bugs from CT could meet up with a long term plot villan from Seattle for various reason, find out some power or knowledge from that villain and take it home to CT. (Say special stuff that the Strega did if that was still a current villain in Seattle, I only know what I know from the monster camp movie.)

The CT plot folks could decide how they want to have that affect their Bug plot and have the Bugs come out with some crazy new thing that the players there haven't run into. Then maybe the 2-3 CT players who were at that national event can try to explain what's going on and why the Bugs can now do this different thing. If there are no players who have this info the PC's in CT can still figure out this 'new' power and maybe a captive NPC or something could be dropped that could help them know where it came from.

Likewise the Strega (or whatever current villain that is out there) could be really impressed with these extra planer bugs and summon a horde of them to attack the town and cause havoc at the discretion of the Seattle plot team. Once again players in the know could help 'figure out' how this is happening and strike back.

Basically if we can all consent to 'share' our long term chapter plot goings on, the idea cross pollination could lead to some really cool cross chapter stuff happening. You don't have to 'give up' the control over how these plots progress in their home chapters to infuse some new crazy stuff into them.
 
Dreamingfurther said:
I didn't remotely intend to mean that chapters all wrap up their major chapter specific story lines at a national event.

However you could have a significant 'event' in that chapter plotline happen at a national event right? I hope were talking about the same sort of long, arc, possibly multi year chapter plots that don't 'get done' all at once.

Is it really so threatening that something could happen in a chapter specific storyline that only some folks would interact with? I mean even regular players 'miss' single events at their home chapters but that doesn't stop that home chapter plot team from putting on the plot they intended for the weekend. Sometimes even very important things happen to plot lines 'off stage' between events. Something like that could happen at a National event I would think.

There is a difference between, 'Yeah, I got something planned that weekend' & 'Yeah, I can't swing the $800 airfare'.

As I stated before: Chapters that are close proximity, I don't see any issues with doing cross chapter plots...it will just be more work for them to keep things straight.
 
Of course there is totally a difference between 'having something planned', and '$400 airfare for a weekend'.

(And lets be fair on the airfare bit, I looked up BOS to LA flights only 1 month away from now and they aren't more than $400, not to mention if you get earlier reservations, 400 is an order of magnitude less than 800.)


However I made that point to illustrate, people miss 'parts' of long term big single chapter plot lines all the time. Assuming that the plot line isn't ending at the national event (and I would suggest against this) it seems like it would be feasible for an 'occurrence' in lots of chapters long term plots to occur at the national event don't you think?

The key is trying to come up with some way that everyone could share more chapter specific happenings that their players are going to be more invested in while at the same time not 'taking away control' from the individual chapters plot teams. I think it would be possible to find a middle road here if people could be open.

if you can't tell this idea is actually getting me really excited... ;)
 
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