Death

[Deadlands of Old]

I don't like the "adventurers are special" concept. If a PC kills a farmer, I want that farmer to be able to resurrect and report the death. It makes the game world more real.

Sorry, Mike. A little late. It's the pretty much the most fundamental aspect of the Deadlands chapter. The land is cursed so that most people can't leave it and can't rez. It's a plot effect that has generated a lot of fun rp, and it has never once been a problem in any way whatsoever, that I know of.

 

[Talen]

I've seen games where the whole death-life cycle is so exceptional for some folks because quite simply, Death is overworked and "underpaid"- resurrections and necromancy leave Death very little spirit-stuff to work with compared to what it's supposed to give a lot of people, so it means people with shoddy, delicate spirits that fall apart after a single death get born, instead of the multiple ones. Bit by bit, "adventurers" are more of a rarity, and the very mortal are just that. Of course, who can tell till you get killed?

Certainly not most people. Don't go killing harmless farmers, or you might end up proving someone's resurrectable the hard way.

 

[Deadlands of Old]

Certainly not most people. Don't go killing harmless farmers, or you might end up proving someone's resurrectable the hard way.

Yes, I think that's important to have. We agree that there shouldn't be anything by way of appearance to tell if someone can pull off a rez, so it's never safe to just snuff a farmer. In fact, we've had plot in which someone finds out they're Twice-born by getting murdered, which then often changes the direction of their life. There are also commoners who can rez but are just lazy or cowardly or what ever, and just simply choose to avoid the life of an adventurer, and then of course there is conflict around that, the whole "you're special and do nothing with it, you could give your life time and time again to help us and choose not to?"

We also have NPC adventurers who are True Mortal, with full knowledge that their first death will be their last. I would actually be really impressed if a PC wanted to create a True Mortal character. The rp from that could be pretty intense.

 

[Quinn]

Another approach may be that while everyone can resurrect as Adventurers do (and may WANT to Resurrect) once the Spirit leaves the body it just wants to keep going to the Graveyard plane- only those with strong wills or supreme devotion to something have the will to remain in a Circle waiting to be Rezz'd. It may even be something that the character is not aware of but rather a subconscious desire of the Spirit in each person. Maybe that is what makes Adventurers and other powerful NPCs special - subconsciously they have a drive to remain on the Mortal world for as long as possible for some reason.

This could change over time, too, then- a powerful and ancient NPC may subconsciously reach "its goals" and despite the fact that its resurrected only once before (having 1 freebie remaining) its Spirit decides to head to the Graveyard despite the intellectual intentions of the NPC. Similarly it could be its 8th death... it doesn't matter how many times he's come back before if his Spirit isn't willingly any longer. Its not about strength its about drive and desire.

If you just watched people die and the resurrections you may come up with a theory that some individuals or social classes have weaker spirits or an inability to resurrect at all- but those observations may be skewed by traditional perceptions of a specific group, unknown factors (such as disease or heart disease), etc

 

[obcidian_bandit]

I'm going to devil's advocate your system here first:

We agree that there shouldn't be anything by way of appearance to tell if someone can pull off a rez,

Not visually, but obviously there are ways to do it. Got a few Life spells left before logistics? Run a quick "See if you're mortal" workshop, where you KB a farmer, "Healing Arts: How long until you Resurrect," then Life them. If they respond "5 minutes" congratulations, you're an Adventurer. If they respond "Never," then sorry, better stick to them beets.

We also have NPC adventurers who are True Mortal, with full knowledge that their first death will be their last.

How did they figure out that they were 'mortals?' Did they visit one of my workshops?

Here's where we start running into issues:

I would actually be really impressed if a PC wanted to create a True Mortal character. The rp from that could be pretty intense.

While I agree that that would make for some cool RP and wouldn't mechanically be game-breaking, it runs this really fine line on breaking the rules. Now, it's perfectly possible for someone to run a normal character who has decided (and just so happened to be working with the plot team) that they'll retire their character as soon as it takes a death, net achieving the same thing, which is perfectly fine I suppose. Plus, what would happen if guy who makes "True Mortal PC" goes to another chapter where they die? What if that chapter scales differently, or doesn't want to deal with that sort of plotline being forced into their chapter?

Now I'll get to the real business:
You have, quite intentionally, set up a situation where the world functions differently than in other chapters. Some people resurrect, some don't, but without obvious reason. In most places, PC races resurrect, and some others, based on Plot, do, don't or sometimes do. This is easily distinguished IG and OOG by the race that the PC (or NPC) is, reducing the separation between PC and NPC. In your chapter, you've increased that separation to the point that "Who is an NPC" isn't just OOG knowledge, but it's IG knowledge. I think that that is a bad thing.

(Now, an equally bad thing, but more obvious and not my main point, is that "who resurrects and who doesn't" is laid out pretty clearly in the book. Regardless of any 'Plot trumps Rules' arguments that someone might make here, the Rules establish the world that the characters live in. They're the Laws of Nature, and when you start messing with them, you seriously start hampering the Suspension of Disbelief that is so important in our game.)

 

[phedre]

I'm going to devil's advocate your system here first:

We agree that there shouldn't be anything by way of appearance to tell if someone can pull off a rez,

Not visually, but obviously there are ways to do it. Got a few Life spells left before logistics? Run a quick "See if you're mortal" workshop, where you KB a farmer, "Healing Arts: How long until you Resurrect," then Life them. If they respond "5 minutes" congratulations, you're an Adventurer. If they respond "Never," then sorry, better stick to them beets.

The verbal is "Healing Arts, how long until you dissipate?" HA won't tell you if they'll successfully rez or not. Same goes for something like "HA, how long until you Rebirth?" it isn't a valid question to determine if they have one or not.

I would actually be really impressed if a PC wanted to create a True Mortal character. The rp from that could be pretty intense.

While I agree that that would make for some cool RP and wouldn't mechanically be game-breaking, it runs this really fine line on breaking the rules. Now, it's perfectly possible for someone to run a normal character who has decided (and just so happened to be working with the plot team) that they'll retire their character as soon as it takes a death, net achieving the same thing, which is perfectly fine I suppose. Plus, what would happen if guy who makes "True Mortal PC" goes to another chapter where they die? What if that chapter scales differently, or doesn't want to deal with that sort of plotline being forced into their chapter?

You can choose to perm/retire your character at any point. The plot team can ask you to reconsider, maybe OOG tell you they have personal plot prepped for you and do something wonky if they so choose to force your character through the process with your OOG permission. Add to that, True Mortals can't leave the Deadlands, so the argument is moot.

Now I'll get to the real business:
You have, quite intentionally, set up a situation where the world functions differently than in other chapters. Some people resurrect, some don't, but without obvious reason. In most places, PC races resurrect, and some others, based on Plot, do, don't or sometimes do. This is easily distinguished IG and OOG by the race that the PC (or NPC) is, reducing the separation between PC and NPC. In your chapter, you've increased that separation to the point that "Who is an NPC" isn't just OOG knowledge, but it's IG knowledge. I think that that is a bad thing.

(Now, an equally bad thing, but more obvious and not my main point, is that "who resurrects and who doesn't" is laid out pretty clearly in the book. Regardless of any 'Plot trumps Rules' arguments that someone might make here, the Rules establish the world that the characters live in. They're the Laws of Nature, and when you start messing with them, you seriously start hampering the Suspension of Disbelief that is so important in our game.)

I'll agree that it brings about interesting RP, and forces PCs to find solutions to things like famine and plague other than trying to bring refugees to other continents. PCs aren't told "If you die once you perm here," so it doesn't significantly alter anything but the RP. Each chapter is different... if we were all the same, why bother chapter hopping, so why have policies in place that enforces transferability, why be an alliance? There are many unique RP things that happen in New Hampshire as a result of the Withering and Void, this is something that adds to the flavor of the game (which I will say is an excellent one!).

 

[Quinn]

I'm going to devil's advocate your system here first:

We agree that there shouldn't be anything by way of appearance to tell if someone can pull off a rez,

Not visually, but obviously there are ways to do it. Got a few Life spells left before logistics? Run a quick "See if you're mortal" workshop, where you KB a farmer, "Healing Arts: How long until you Resurrect," then Life them. If they respond "5 minutes" congratulations, you're an Adventurer. If they respond "Never," then sorry, better stick to them beets.

The verbal is "Healing Arts, how long until you dissipate?" HA won't tell you if they'll successfully rez or not. Same goes for something like "HA, how long until you Rebirth?" it isn't a valid question to determine if they have one or not.

Actually Resurrection can be asked with HA:

How much time until you <wake up, become conscious, stop being terrorized, become unparalyzed, die, resurrect>?
RB Page 61 second column under "Healing Arts"

And this is from the Addendum:
61: Healing Arts: After the "These out-of-game questions can only include the following:" section, add: A player representing a permanently dead body should respond to "Are you Dead" with "yes", and "How long until you resurrect" with either "Never" or "Not applicable."

You won't know if the Rez is going to be successful or not- but you know that they WILL go and attempt to Resurrect (whether they draw stones or or Perm as plot dictates/whatever).

 

[obcidian_bandit]

The verbal is "Healing Arts, how long until you dissipate?" HA won't tell you if they'll successfully rez or not. Same goes for something like "HA, how long until you Rebirth?" it isn't a valid question to determine if they have one or not.

1) No. See the post above mine, Quinn hit this one pretty well. In the future, please refrain from attempting to make rules calls without first checking your rulebook.

2) I'm not really certain how you missed the point here, since I quoted the sections of the previous post that mine referred to. Here they are again:

I'm going to devil's advocate your system here first

Add to that, True Mortals can't leave the Deadlands, so the argument is moot.

I would actually be really impressed if a PC wanted to create a True Mortal character.

what would happen if guy who makes "True Mortal PC" goes to another chapter where they die? What if that chapter scales differently, or doesn't want to deal with that sort of plotline being forced into their chapter?

 

[Michiko]

They would not go to another chapter.

From an OOG mechanics standpoint they could transfer, but would choose not to. Obviously someone playing a True Mortal character would be seriously tying their own hands, but that is within the player's right to do.

From the PC perspective I have seen nothing but good things plot wise out of this "flavor" of the game. I like being able to resurrect, but it does take some of the fun out of telling stories that end in death when the death only has a certain chance of being permanent.

 

[phedre]

The verbal is "Healing Arts, how long until you dissipate?" HA won't tell you if they'll successfully rez or not. Same goes for something like "HA, how long until you Rebirth?" it isn't a valid question to determine if they have one or not.

1) No. See the post above mine, Quinn hit this one pretty well. In the future, please refrain from attempting to make rules calls without first checking your rulebook.

2) I'm not really certain how you missed the point here, since I quoted the sections of the previous post that mine referred to. Here they are again:

I'm going to devil's advocate your system here first

Add to that, True Mortals can't leave the Deadlands, so the argument is moot.

I would actually be really impressed if a PC wanted to create a True Mortal character.

what would happen if guy who makes "True Mortal PC" goes to another chapter where they die? What if that chapter scales differently, or doesn't want to deal with that sort of plotline being forced into their chapter?

1) Point taken... my computer is suffering an unfortunate case of the hiccups, and having no hard copy of the new rulebook, I am unable to access one until my old hard drive is restored. My old rulebook is who-knows-where.

However, the point still stands... if I ask someone with a Rebirth "healing arts, how long until you rez," I'm not aware that they would say "I have a rebirth," or "Not applicable." They would tell me how long was left on their 5 minute death count. Same with a Regenned PC, or a creature who will dissipate and reform on their home plane (this is chapter dependent). The answer will be "3 minutes and 10 seconds," or whatever the appropriate time is. "Never" and "Not applicable" apply to permanently dead bodies, not those who won't be rezzing (in a strict sense of the word).

2)True Mortals are (I believe, Gary will hopefully correct if I'm wrong) permanently dead after the 5 minute death count, dissipation, failure to successfully rez, and re-forming of the body, just like a PC. Gary stated that True Mortals can't leave the Deadlands before your "devils advocate" post, I wasn't sure if you missed it. There is a specific mechanic for using the mists to get in and out of the Deadlands, and a specific mechanic for moving around within the Deadlands from bastion to bastion. They can move around the land, but aren't able to use the Mists.

If True Mortals were permanently dead after being KBed or hit with a Death spell, or bleeding out, then I'd say it was game changing. But because we already talk about "strength of spirit" when IG discussing our PC's chances to rez (ie, "My spirit has seen the circle once, but feels so strong I know I'll come back" or "My spirit has already seen the circle 5 times, I'm not sure how strong it still is") I think it makes sense that in a land where different races are effected by the Withering in different ways, there would be a large amount of people whose spirits just aren't strong enough to rez.



I know you're playing devil's advocate, and I'm not trying to attack, I hope it wasn't taken that way. Deadlands is one of the chapters I play consistently, so I knew what some of the answers were to the points you were making, and thought you might like a quick response.

 

[Deadlands of Old]

How did they figure out that they were 'mortals?' Did they visit one of my workshops?

While I agree that that would make for some cool RP and wouldn't mechanically be game-breaking, it runs this really fine line on breaking the rules. Now, it's perfectly possible for someone to run a normal character who has decided (and just so happened to be working with the plot team) that they'll retire their character as soon as it takes a death, net achieving the same thing, which is perfectly fine I suppose. Plus, what would happen if guy who makes "True Mortal PC" goes to another chapter where they die? What if that chapter scales differently, or doesn't want to deal with that sort of plotline being forced into their chapter?

Now I'll get to the real business:
You have, quite intentionally, set up a situation where the world functions differently than in other chapters. Some people resurrect, some don't, but without obvious reason. In most places, PC races resurrect, and some others, based on Plot, do, don't or sometimes do. This is easily distinguished IG and OOG by the race that the PC (or NPC) is, reducing the separation between PC and NPC. In your chapter, you've increased that separation to the point that "Who is an NPC" isn't just OOG knowledge, but it's IG knowledge. I think that that is a bad thing.

(Now, an equally bad thing, but more obvious and not my main point, is that "who resurrects and who doesn't" is laid out pretty clearly in the book. Regardless of any 'Plot trumps Rules' arguments that someone might make here, the Rules establish the world that the characters live in. They're the Laws of Nature, and when you start messing with them, you seriously start hampering the Suspension of Disbelief that is so important in our game.)

I appreciate you playing the devil’s advocate. It helps to better explain why certain decisions were made and why certain opinions endure. To answer your questions as best I can:

First, please do bear in mind no one has ever wanted to play a True Mortal; I imagine because it would suck, and we've honestly never decided whether or not we would let someone. As far as knowing one's status IG, True Mortals can't travel through the mists; it’s part of the curse. If a PC wanted to be one, theoretically, they would have to retire the character after one death and not chapter hop. If they changed their minds and did either they would become Twice-born, which can happen to NPC Twice-born as well, theoretically.

Yes, we have intentionally set it up differently from other chapters. There are obvious reasons why some people rez and others don't, and they become obvious upon one’s integration into the plot. The reasons are simply not visible.

And to correct a false assumption that I realize now I completely mistakenly implied: actually, most of the NPCs the PCs deal with are Twice-born as well, bad guys and good guys, so from IG evidence alone there is no way to automatically establish who is a PC and who is an NPC. It is mostly the commoners who are off-stage that cannot rez, and they usually stay away from the PCs for a number of IG reasons I'd rather not go through here, simply because it will take too long.

And lastly, you said it best, "Plot trumps Rules."

Your mention of the "Laws of Nature" is actually very relevant to our plot. In the Deadlands these laws have been terribly broken and re-written by horrific IG forces. That is the point of the chapter. We haven’t had any problems with this for the last two years, and hopefully that will continue, but either way, I’m glad we wrote something different. It’s been fun.

PS. Phedre's understanding of the mechanics with regard to TM's is correct. Thanks for saving me the time to explain that, Lauren.

 

[Jevedor]

I always assumed that whether u were a True Mortal or not was inferred by family history.. and such, and most of the time when a npc says "Hey Im a true Mortal" it was more that they assumed they were true mortal because 90% of the people they have known or ever lived with were True Mortals and when they died they didnt come back... so they sort of just grew up or started thinking they were true mortals as well... but even to there true awareness they cant REALLY be sure... just as any other person wouldnt know. PC's shouldnt even know if they are infact going to resurrect (even with freebies), they just know that its a possibility.

to the point of true mortals mist traveling.. and i am probably wrong in this interpretation, but i thought that it was more that if they tried they would die and not resurrect (if they are in fact true mortals). But the only thing actually preventing them from trying is the fear of there own uncertain death. So shouldn't it be more said, A true mortal wont survive mist travel not that they can't in fact do it (I sware there was an event where this infact happened and a NPC tried and died thus proving the point.. might have been portal hopping actually)... I know its a technicality but imo i think it states the point a little more clearly.... now if i am misinterpreting intent please correct me, as i have had incorrect notions about this all along apparently..

 

[Wraith]

This does throw an interesting complexion on some of the hesitations I've had about writing for Alliance games. After all, if you can throw out a rule that's as central as Ressurection for plot purposes, then it isn't far-fetched to change how formal magic and magic items work entirely in the name of plot.

 

[MKing]

This does throw an interesting complexion on some of the hesitations I've had about writing for Alliance games. After all, if you can throw out a rule that's as central as Ressurection for plot purposes, then it isn't far-fetched to change how formal magic and magic items work entirely in the name of plot.

Im not sure how they are "throwing out" the rules on Ressurection....the rules for PC are still the same, a majority of the NPC still ress...it's off board that the TM and TB really come into play...

so yeah I guess you could change the rules on how formal magic and magic items work, off board and still have them work normally for PCs

 

[phedre]

Being that all True Mortals thus far have been NPCs, it is Plot's discretion wether they rez or not. Being NPCs they are Plot controlled and thus even a standard (or Twice Born) NPC could theoretically perm on their first death if Plot so decides. I could retire my PC upon her first death and it could be interpreted as failure to rez... I haven't altered the game mechanic for other players, I've only made a choice about the continued existance of that character.

I fail to see how making it known that a group of people cannot successfully rez is the same as throwing out rules on MIs, formal magic or high magic.

 

[Deadlands of Old]

This does throw an interesting complexion on some of the hesitations I've had about writing for Alliance games. After all, if you can throw out a rule that's as central as Ressurection for plot purposes, then it isn't far-fetched to change how formal magic and magic items work entirely in the name of plot.

It is a role play effect only.

It has only affected npc's, whom you may have sprout wings and fart diamonds, if it suits your plot.

I really don't mind answering questions and clarifying things, guys, but please take a little extra time, read the previous comments before asking new questions or making any assumptions. It just saves time.

And Jeremy, what you saw was a plot effect particular to that weekend.

 

[Jevedor]

thanks for that clarification Gary.

 

[Sunnfire]

It has only affected npc's, whom you may have sprout wings and fart diamonds, if it suits your plot.

Please send out this true mortal.

I promise to feed him, and take him for walks.

 

[Jezebel]

No! He'll just come out as Preston again!