Destroy Undead

[Eldor]

Destroy undead is a 7th level spell. This spell will destroy any one lesser undead creature. Greater undead will take 50 Body Points of damage.

Under the current write up for 0.9, I could cast that or cast a 7th level cure spell that would deal 70 damage to an undead. I would hope that would kill any lesser undead, or heal someone for 35 body points.

This says to me Destroy Undead needs a rewrite.

It should destroy one greater undead creature, or deal 200 body damage if they can not be destroyed by this spell, or at least do 150 body damage to undead.

As a side note, can Create Undead be modified to actually make meaningful undead, a half body zombie that swings for 2 is pathetic when you only get 10 minutes.

 

[Pantzike]

Woah Woah Woah, killing a Lesser Undead Creature outright is plenty powerful. Some can have far more than 50 body.

The Damage to Greater if it's not destroyed just needs to be adjusted slightly. For comparison sake a Celestial similar spell is put in at level 4: Banish. Instantly banishes Lesser targeted creatures, and deals 5o damage to greater.

Create Undead must be taken into consideration as Banish has no reverse.

I think a damage boost if the level is not moved downward (say to a round 100 damage to greater undead) or moving the level to something lower (5ish) are both good options.


Any spell that instantly slays a GREATER creature is markedly more powerful that Destroy Undead currently is.

 

[Tantarus]

That is kinda the point, it would be a spell that the undead would have to defend. Much like Confine or Charm of the same level.

Would it be so wrong for earth to have one thing they are strong against? Even Earth templar paragon Champ of the living is pretty lackluster (other then in flavor) when it comes to battling undead. It strikes me as lame that Prison a Celestial spell is the best and most effective thing against undead. Why not let it be a narrow earth spell.

Create Undead must be taken into consideration as Banish has no reverse.

Of which only use to a PC is to put other Earth casters into lakes and voiding their rebirth. At the low cost of only risking getting executed.

 

[Eldor]

The necromancy side of earth casting should never be taken into consideration as to balancing its power, considering Necromancy is illegal per the rules and will never be publicly useful unless you want your character to be hunted down and killed by everyone.

Also if lesser undead have more than 50 body, that is also dumb. At a minimum, Destroy Undead should deal to greater undead what the maximum body is for any lesser undead in the game.

As to a level adjustment, that was what harm undead was supposed to be, but it also would have been pointless in the new rules had it stayed around as it did 20 body and a comparable earth spell in the new rules would do 40.

Now Celestials get to choose one of 4 types of element to cast at the time of casting to deal double damage to any elemental or other creature weak to an element. Earth casters on the other hand can only effect undead with their double damage. A Prison is still the most effective spell against greater undead, even though undead are supposed to fear earth casters. Nothing about that is equal.

 

[Muir]

If you think there aren't a number of necromancer PCs in game right now, then you're playing a different game than I am. Necromancy being illegal is only fun because it lets players who want to use it get that thrill of breaking the law. Otherwise it wouldn't be available to PCs at all, like Dragon Magic or Fey Curse.

 

[Avaran]

If you think there aren't a number of necromancer PCs in game right now, then you're playing a different game than I am. Necromancy being illegal is only fun because it lets players who want to use it get that thrill of breaking the law. Otherwise it wouldn't be available to PCs at all, like Dragon Magic or Fey Curse.

I really don't think that Necro being illegal has any bearing on how bad Destroy Undead is right now; now does it have anything to do with the fact that it should instantly dust a Greater Undead so that they have something to fear from Earth Scholars; Celestial Scholars have long had one of the best take-out effects in the game with Prison, and given the fantasy that Earth Scholars are SUPPOSED TO HAVE versus Undead....this should really be a thing.

 

[Shades]

given the fantasy that Earth Scholars are SUPPOSED TO HAVE versus Undead....this should really be a thing.

This makes sense to me. Fighters get Eviscerate, Rogues get Terminate Celestials get Prison. It makes sense to me that Destroy Undead would destroy and any undead.

 

[Draven]

This makes sense to me. Fighters get Eviscerate, Rogues get Terminate Celestials get Prison. It makes sense to me that Destroy Undead would destroy and any undead.

Accurate. In its current form, I don't memorize DU because Confine is just stupidly more useful.

 

[Saephis]

If you think there aren't a number of necromancer PCs in game right now, then you're playing a different game than I am. Necromancy being illegal is only fun because it lets players who want to use it get that thrill of breaking the law. Otherwise it wouldn't be available to PCs at all, like Dragon Magic or Fey Curse.

Chaos and Necromancy were quoted over and over to me, years ago, that the utility it provided to Earth casters was the justification on why its damage and healing values were lower than its Celestial counterpart. The fact that the ARB also assigned pseudo-religious ("But certainly not religious") fanaticism against it has always been a curious contradiction to me.

With the consistent-between-versions of the proposed rules of giving Celestial casters elemental options, and the same damage disparity being upkept between Earth/Chaos Storm and Magic Storm (Now featuring 5 carrier options, rather than just one), its clear that Earth needs attention desperately. As I've continued to bring up elsewhere, an Earth-school equivalent to Celestial wands is past due for *at the very least* testing (I know, "Talk to your chapter owner", but having other owners should be as valid).

If Earth is expected to have no one-shot take-out to even keep up with every other build in the game, outside of what's very likely to be a very-resistable Curse of Death, then a specialized Take-Out spell for what they're supposed to specialize against (Undead) seems entirely appropriate both in system and theme. Considering Celestial has Prison and, frankly, few things need to avoid Eldritch Force other than persons adverse to being Prison'd (Please omit Subjugate from counter-arguments, with the pending dismissal of Golems).

 

[Avaran]

I know this might complicate things a bit, but hear me out.

So I think it would be really weird for an Undead to be instantly killed by Death (Earth's take-out effect that is now Curse) given that they are already...Dead and (except in the case of Create Undead) past the point of being Resurrected. They dust, they go to res. End of story.

So I think it would be a great flavor thing for Destroy Undead to act like the Death spell does on living things, and just...end...any Undead's existence. Conversely, Undead should be immune to Death. This might require moving Destroy Undead to a higher circle (perhaps to compete with Death?), but I'm not sure how that would fit in with the Grand Scheme of Things™.

To illustrate this: Celestial casters are feared - by those intelligent enough to do so - by Elementals, and rightfully so. A C-Scholar can do up to, what is it, 90 points of damage with one spell to an Elemental (double damage effect from opposing school), and they can do it basically at-will. Not only that, they have Wands and lots of other tools in their box to specialize in dealing with Elementals. I think it is high time that Earth Casters finally get the same distinction, though with LESS flexibility because it would only be with Undead (instead of with the 12-billion types of Elementals that exist).

The most important part is that it doesn't have any bearing on PVP - Destroy Undead is a "no effect" call by things with a Metabolism.

And sure, Plot would need to get creative with Monster design and would need to be careful with scaling, but I think that's a challenge plot teams should rise to meet.

 

[Draven]

I know this might complicate things a bit, but hear me out.

So I think it would be really weird for an Undead to be instantly killed by Death (Earth's take-out effect that is now Curse) given that they are already...Dead and (except in the case of Create Undead) past the point of being Resurrected. They dust, they go to res. End of story.

So I think it would be a great flavor thing for Destroy Undead to act like the Death spell does on living things, and just...end...any Undead's existence. Conversely, Undead should be immune to Death. This might require moving Destroy Undead to a higher circle (perhaps to compete with Death?), but I'm not sure how that would fit in with the Grand Scheme of Things™.

To illustrate this: Celestial casters are feared - by those intelligent enough to do so - by Elementals, and rightfully so. A C-Scholar can do up to, what is it, 90 points of damage with one spell to an Elemental (double damage effect from opposing school), and they can do it basically at-will. Not only that, they have Wands and lots of other tools in their box to specialize in dealing with Elementals. I think it is high time that Earth Casters finally get the same distinction, though with LESS flexibility because it would only be with Undead (instead of with the 12-billion types of Elementals that exist).

The most important part is that it doesn't have any bearing on PVP - Destroy Undead is a "no effect" call by things with a Metabolism.

And sure, Plot would need to get creative with Monster design and would need to be careful with scaling, but I think that's a challenge plot teams should rise to meet.

C Casters get the ability to control Elementals without having to fear being Rez'd for it, as well.

Ahem.

 

[Draven]

Personally, I believe Life should be dropped in level (like, 6th or 7th), and serve as a DU.

But it'll never fly.

 

[mikestrauss]

I honestly can't understand what you are talking about in the above post. I believe you are saying that celestial casters are particularly effective against elementals (agreed), but that earth casters aren't particularly effective against undead. The latter is where I pause. All healing does double damage to undead and earth casters can heal pretty darn freely in a lot of ways. Furthermore, spells from the earth effect group of spells (cure disease, purify, etc.) have unique debilitating effects against undead that other classes can't mimic (and that undead are otherwise generally immune to).

Destroy Undead is an insta-kill for lesser undead, which is particularly sad for a whole bunch of lesser undead that have high health (and usually half damage from weapons), but basically no other meaningful trick. It is, especially with the new rules, underpowered against greater undead. That is a legitimate concern.

Borrowing from a friend, lets apply KISS.

The problem (IMO) is the effect against greater undead. In keeping with the spirit of a spell that "removes an undead from the fight," I suggest changing the effect against greater undead to mirror the effect of a purify vs. an undead. In short, greater undead would lose all game abilities. Not destroyed, but unable to function meaningfully. The only major difference is that an 8th or 9th levels spell can cure the effect.

Yes, I understand this lets a 7th level spell mirror an 8th level spell, but only halfway, and I think everyone will acknowledge that the cleansing effect of Purify is really where the main power (and thus spell level) of that spell comes from.

-MS

 

[Draven]

I honestly can't understand what you are talking about in the above post. I believe you are saying that celestial casters are particularly effective against elementals (agreed), but that earth casters aren't particularly effective against undead. The latter is where I pause. All healing does double damage to undead and earth casters can heal pretty darn freely in a lot of ways. Furthermore, spells from the earth effect group of spells (cure disease, purify, etc.) have unique debilitating effects against undead that other classes can't mimic (and that undead are otherwise generally immune to).

Destroy Undead is an insta-kill for lesser undead, which is particularly sad for a whole bunch of lesser undead that have high health (and usually half damage from weapons), but basically no other meaningful trick. It is, especially with the new rules, underpowered against greater undead. That is a legitimate concern.

Borrowing from a friend, lets apply KISS.

The problem (IMO) is the effect against greater undead. In keeping with the spirit of a spell that "removes an undead from the fight," I suggest changing the effect against greater undead to mirror the effect of a purify vs. an undead. In short, greater undead would lose all game abilities. Not destroyed, but unable to function meaningfully. The only major difference is that an 8th or 9th levels spell can cure the effect.

Yes, I understand this lets a 7th level spell mirror an 8th level spell, but only halfway, and I think everyone will acknowledge that the cleansing effect of Purify is really where the main power (and thus spell level) of that spell comes from.

-MS

Earth Casters aren't as effective against Undead, that's correct. Earth Casters, generally, have to prep a broader range of spells than C Casters, as we have to prep for support and healing, and we don't have Wands and Scrolls to supplement ourselves.

Want to see the difference? Wave battles are where it's at. When both the C and E Casters start running out of spells, the C Caster can reach for his wand (or still has spells because he's been using the Wand the entire time), while the E Caster looks on in envy.

 

[Saephis]

Borrowing from a friend, lets apply KISS.

The problem (IMO) is the effect against greater undead. In keeping with the spirit of a spell that "removes an undead from the fight," I suggest changing the effect against greater undead to mirror the effect of a purify vs. an undead. In short, greater undead would lose all game abilities. Not destroyed, but unable to fun

Having two different effects (One of which is changed from the current two-effects in play) doesn't really align with your KISS suggestion.

 

[Avaran]

All healing does double damage to undead and earth casters can heal pretty darn freely in a lot of ways.

Again, genuine question: When was the last time you saw a player throw healing at an Undead who wasn't above 30th level? Or even 25th? (Heck, I don't see 40th+ level characters throwing their healing). Not saying it NEVER happens, but I can't remember the last time I saw a PC throw a healing spell at an Undead.

The game and its current culture AS A WHOLE doesn't support that playstyle; it has always been "save your healing for people who need it".

Then again, who knows, maybe with all of the healing floating around (assuming anyone chooses to be an E caster), people might throw caution to the wind and start throwing healing spells at Undead.

And don't forget, kids, the next time someone asks if you're a god, YOU SAY "Yes!"!!!!!!

 

[Draven]

Again, genuine question: When was the last time you saw a player throw healing at an Undead who wasn't above 30th level? Or even 25th? (Heck, I don't see 40th+ level characters throwing their healing). Not saying it NEVER happens, but I can't remember the last time I saw a PC throw a healing spell at an Undead.

The game and its current culture AS A WHOLE doesn't support that playstyle; it has always been "save your healing for people who need it".

Then again, who knows, maybe with all of the healing floating around (assuming anyone chooses to be an E caster), people might throw caution to the wind and start throwing healing spells at Undead.

And don't forget, kids, the next time someone asks if you're a god, YOU SAY "Yes!"!!!!!!

This.

If you toss a Cure Serious at an Undead, nobody really cares if you're in a highbie group. Cure Crits and Cure Morts, though? Your fighters start panicking.

It's the same mentality that leads to people not throwing Death spells, because the culture wants you to save your Life spells for them.

 

[Samyania]

Can confirm, some fighters get nervous around my priorities.

My PC's memorization specifically specializes in dealing with undead, and I do memorize DU. I even memorize Harm Undead. I think I can count on one hand the number of times a Destroy Undead I've thrown has actually Destroyed Undead, between higher-level undead and surprisingly Dodgy undead.

 

[mikestrauss]

Again, genuine question: When was the last time you saw a player throw healing at an Undead who wasn't above 30th level? Or even 25th? (Heck, I don't see 40th+ level characters throwing their healing). Not saying it NEVER happens, but I can't remember the last time I saw a PC throw a healing spell at an Undead.

The game and its current culture AS A WHOLE doesn't support that playstyle; it has always been "save your healing for people who need it".

Then again, who knows, maybe with all of the healing floating around (assuming anyone chooses to be an E caster), people might throw caution to the wind and start throwing healing spells at Undead.

And don't forget, kids, the next time someone asks if you're a god, YOU SAY "Yes!"!!!!!!

Genuine answer: I can't remember the last time I went out as an undead that I didn't have at least one cure spell thrown at me or someone near me. I have a very distinctive memory of going out as a lich back when the game was very young (maybe 4 or 5 years old) and having to blow my entire necro column into self healing because I got nailed with 5 Cure Mortal Wounds in a row (it was a race between my touch casting necro and the healing I was absorbing). And that was back in the day when healing was MUCH more sparse than it is now, because high magic didn't exist yet, magic items were few and far between, potion troves hadn't been built up yet, and PCs were generally just lower level (APL was probably between 10 and 12 at the time).

Game culture will differ, but I've seen healing thrown against undead in just about every undead wave battle ever. And, I am of the opinion, now that healing will exist at every level (instead of just a few specific levels), making it more common, that healing thrown at undead for damage will become more commonplace, not less.

-MS

 

[mikestrauss]

This.

If you toss a Cure Serious at an Undead, nobody really cares if you're in a highbie group. Cure Crits and Cure Morts, though? Your fighters start panicking.

It's the same mentality that leads to people not throwing Death spells, because the culture wants you to save your Life spells for them.

I think those are very different examples. There is absolutely no backup option for a Life spell. Nothing else in the game can effectively duplicate or substitute for the effect. Magic items are just Life spells in a different (stored) form. The same is not true for healing. If casters don't have some variant of Cure Wounds, there are a plethora of similar options (even ignoring magic items). Potions can (and do) exist for all Cure Wound spells. High magic can produce a healing effect. Alchemy can produce a healing elixir. Armor, while not technically healing, can substitute for healing in most situations. Defensive spells and enhancement spells can substitute to a lesser degree. Even good old first aid can substitute when all other options are played out (weakly, but it is better than dying).

The difference between the availability of Life spells and the availability of some form of healing is basically the difference between night and day. I totally get why players are justifiably paranoid about Life spells. A weekend pretty much needs have gone off the rails, over the cliff, and exploded before paranoia should kick in for healing (which admittedly, does happen sometimes).

-MS