Destroy Undead

[Draven]

I think those are very different examples. There is absolutely no backup option for a Life spell. Nothing else in the game can effectively duplicate or substitute for the effect. Magic items are just Life spells in a different (stored) form. The same is not true for healing. If casters don't have some variant of Cure Wounds, there are a plethora of similar options (even ignoring magic items). Potions can (and do) exist for all Cure Wound spells. High magic can produce a healing effect. Alchemy can produce a healing elixir. Armor, while not technically healing, can substitute for healing in most situations. Defensive spells and enhancement spells can substitute to a lesser degree. Even good old first aid can substitute when all other options are played out (weakly, but it is better than dying).

The difference between the availability of Life spells and the availability of some form of healing is basically the difference between night and day. I totally get why players are justifiably paranoid about Life spells. A weekend pretty much needs have gone off the rails, over the cliff, and exploded before paranoia should kick in for healing (which admittedly, does happen sometimes).

-MS

Elixir healing is not a replacement for Cure Mortal/Critical/Serious. No fighter is going to sit around and chug 15 Elixirs so that a Scholar feels justified in their use of a Cure Mort against an Undead.

Healer's Resolve is the HM ability you speak of. It's an emergency reserve, because the pool doesn't refresh like spells do. An experienced caster isn't going to say, "I should chuck these Cure Morts out, because if worst comes to worst, I can use Resolve to fix my buddies." They're going to keep -both- resources available for healing, because they know if they tap into HR now, they might not have it tomorrow.

If you're relying on First Aid, you've already lost.

 

[Draven]

(Also, if the spell gets cloaked, phased, or resisted, their Fighter friends are going to be that much more annoyed with them).

 

[Saephis]

Game culture will differ, but I've seen healing thrown against undead in just about every undead wave battle ever. And, I am of the opinion, now that healing will exist at every level (instead of just a few specific levels), making it more common, that healing thrown at undead for damage will become more commonplace, not less.

With the admission that 'game culture will differ', I'm a bit confused on your steadfast stance of your view on game being the most universal. The concern that I keep finding with earth casters, past and present, who have read each successive release of 2.0 rules is that the writers of this are pushing more and more for Earth casters to be sitting in a corner, only to be utilized when someone else needs healing.

With healing being available on every level, and the vast disparity between Earth and Celestial, I'm interested on how you view that not being the further push? And, considering how Earth is specifically supposed to be more inclined to combat undead, why would one support a less effective spell, even if two spells exist on the same level? Shouldn't Destroy Undead do more than Cure <Whatever Wounds is on that level>?

 

[Draven]

The concern that I keep finding with earth casters, past and present, who have read each successive release of 2.0 rules is that the writers of this are pushing more and more for Earth casters to be sitting in a corner, only to be utilized when someone else needs healing.

With healing being available on every level, and the vast disparity between Earth and Celestial, I'm interested on how you view that not being the further push? And, considering how Earth is specifically supposed to be more inclined to combat undead, why would one support a less effective spell, even if two spells exist on the same level? Shouldn't Destroy Undead do more than Cure <Whatever Wounds is on that level>?

As someone who is abandoning Earth Scholar at least 50% because of this (the other 50% being to have a fighter in my group), I wholeheartedly endorse this.

Actually, it's more like 100%. I was going to go C Scholar, but my group is heavy with that.

 

[Avaran]

Genuine answer: I can't remember the last time I went out as an undead that I didn't have at least one cure spell thrown at me or someone near me. I have a very distinctive memory of going out as a lich back when the game was very young (maybe 4 or 5 years old) and having to blow my entire necro column into self healing because I got nailed with 5 Cure Mortal Wounds in a row (it was a race between my touch casting necro and the healing I was absorbing). And that was back in the day when healing was MUCH more sparse than it is now, because high magic didn't exist yet, magic items were few and far between, potion troves hadn't been built up yet, and PCs were generally just lower level (APL was probably between 10 and 12 at the time).

Interesting. Would you chalk that up to the East Coast's more...organized....method of fighting (you guys tend to fight in a line out there from what I've seen and heard - mostly heard)?

We do a LOT of skirmishing out here. And by a lot, I mean disorganized chaos sometimes. xD I'm also rather surprised because from what I've heard, EC chapters tend to have a lot of high-level Fighters. I would think they would need healing up (from take-out effects if/when they land, if nothing else). Or is healing not needed because Magic Items?

For me, I have a couple of curative spells, but I save those for "oh (#$*@#*" moments. Otherwise, I have to go back to healers and suck up 2-3 Cure Morts so I can get back in the fight.

Game culture will differ, but I've seen healing thrown against undead in just about every undead wave battle ever. And, I am of the opinion, now that healing will exist at every level (instead of just a few specific levels), making it more common, that healing thrown at undead for damage will become more commonplace, not less.

See, I was kinda headed that direction myself:

Then again, who knows, maybe with all of the healing floating around[...]people might throw caution to the wind and start throwing healing spells at Undead

I think it's POSSIBLE that with more healing available some could be used offensively; but I think from an efficiency stand-point it's better to have 7th-9th level healing available so you use fewer spells versus using, say, four 4th level cures when you could have used a two Morts instead. But I don't play an E-Caster, so I haven't taken the time to really think about proper spell efficiency and usage. It's something I'd have to experience to know for sure. But if my healer is out of spells because they have been throwing them at Undead...my character's gonna have a talk with them about the importance of proper spell usage and timing... =P

 

[Muir]

I think this butts up against a serious game design problem that Alliance inherited from D&D: "Somebody Has To Play The Cleric"

Earth scholars' build is mostly used to make other players' experience of the game better by letting them play longer and have less down time. That is cool and good, but it becomes the expectation that they be required to play as heal-bots, and our game design has over time pushed to reflect that as the only "valid" play style for them.

C-casters have several good buffs available to give out via protection spells, elemental/magic blades, and the like. However, they are primarily viewed (both popularly and by game design) as evocation damage dealers, and additional rules support for that role such as wands has been added over time.

It is a problem if we could effectively replace most of the earth casters in the game by giving people the ability to buy rebirths and an alchemical version of Cure Light that only goes off once you hit your bleed-out count.

 

[Saephis]

So, again, isn't this all cause to change that? If everyone relied on D&D Examples for how a game should be designed and played, this would look vastly different -- and still not require a Cleric.

Someone has to have the ability to heal others, yes, however that can take the place of the spiritual shaman, a righteous paladin, a bestial druid -- or dozens of other archetypes that aren't treated as a "Sit in the corner and heal me" role, that each successive edition of rules has pushed Earth casters, whether through further diminishing their abilities or buffing Celestial over, and over, and over again.

 

[Draven]

This is a conversation I've had a few times in the current culture:

Me: I'm going to move away from Earth casting.

Person: But no! You're basically the biggest healer around! Are you sure?

Me: Would you like to be a healer?

Person: Haha no

----------------------

Earth Casters are excellent vending machines to make another person feel awesome in combat. However, because they're balanced specifically for the experience of someone else, nobody wants to help them be something more.

Healing spells are so important to making Other People feel awesome that Potions aren't reserved to use for people with healing arts. That's straight up Game Design.

Life spells are so important that people will judge you for using Death spells and Healing for offense.

Earth Scholars are so bad at getting kills that they rarely get a chance to loot, which can impact their ability to get treasure at all. This can vary from chapter to chapter, of course.

People who play ES tend to be in it primarily for the RP, from what I've seen. But that's not really a justification for them being mechanically boned.

 

[Pantzike]

To try to bring things back on track a bit to the Destroy Undead spell.

I currently use it mostly to quickly dust a few fodder, or chewy lesser undead that have more than 50 body. Finally I use it to try to draw some defensives before I unload my healing into a thing (yes I'm that kind of healer too)

However, to talk about the spell as written NOW (1.3)

It's pretty well balanced. It's sandwiched between Cure Crit which does 40 to Undead... and Cure Mort which does 60 to Undead. It happens to do 50 to Undead, and will kill outright any lesser undead that happens to have more than 50 body. Pretty nifty. I've been taking at least 2 a day since I had a 4 block. It's my thing.

Banish was put in at level 4 and does pretty much the same to Elementals and other Extra planers, I have a bunch of those in items and/or in memory too, both great spells.

Now, when 2.0 comes out, the damage numbers won't be as balanced, as the spells it was balance against are moving down in level to levels 4/6 instead of 6/8.

If, as is currently the case in the [0.9] document, nothing changes with Destroy Undead while the earth damage world changes around it, I will be less inclined to take it, unless, after experimentation I find that there are a large number of Lesser Undead that also have more than 70 body (which the healing spell at the same level would deal). Otherwise it's just easier to throw the Healing.

Banish, on the other hand, retains the same balance, as celestial damage does not move around it.

This leads me back to my inital ideas of shifting the level or boosting the damage somewhat of the Destroy Undead spell.


Other discussed ideas (changing it to do SIGNIFICANTLY more damage to greater undead etc) while they aren't bad ideas themselves... do significantly change the spell from how it is currently balanced and used.

I think what first should be requested is at least just keeping the spell balance to where it falls now in the scheme of things. Any other changes or additions to the spells available to PC's may want to be discussed in a separate fashion because that's an entirely separate discussion or request..

Just my thoughts.

 

[Pantzike]

Interesting. Would you chalk that up to the East Coast's more...organized....method of fighting (you guys tend to fight in a line out there from what I've seen and heard - mostly heard)?

We do a LOT of skirmishing out here. And by a lot, I mean disorganized chaos sometimes. xD I'm also rather surprised because from what I've heard, EC chapters tend to have a lot of high-level Fighters. I would think they would need healing up (from take-out effects if/when they land, if nothing else). Or is healing not needed because Magic Items?

For me, I have a couple of curative spells, but I save those for "oh (#$*@#*" moments. Otherwise, I have to go back to healers and suck up 2-3 Cure Morts so I can get back in the fight.

You are only a heal-bot if you let yourself be one. One of the reasons I like being an Earth Caster is because on my off days I can switch into that mode and just give out buffs from the back as it were.

But even on my non Healbot days, my PC has a rule: you only get 1. I tend to only give 1 "big" healing spell (currently defined as cure crit or cure mort) per heal. Go refit your armor, I'll see you next time. If the subject then finds another healer, suppliments with potions, whatever, that's great for them, not my problem. I saved them and got them fighting fit. This spreads my healing around, or conserves it so it lasts longer, however one wants to look at it.


End of day, it takes backbone in the player to choose to do what they want with their own spells. The other part is finding a group or becoming established as doing it that way and then it's just how you are.

Some Healers ARE the "HealBots" but not all Earth Casters have to be. Even in the High Body East Coast.

I'd included an outlier story about a Healer who was known for only casting Death spells, and relied on a life item to save their team, but I know it's just an outlier so I shortened it to this sentence. Suffice it to say, all it takes is the will to break the mold and you can easily be a non healbot with your spell selection.

Healers Resolve Pool also helps compensate for spell choices, if a character has the High Magic to put into it, but it's not required.

 

[Avaran]

But even on my non Healbot days, my PC has a rule: you only get 1. I tend to only give 1 "big" healing spell (currently defined as cure crit or cure mort) per heal. Go refit your armor, I'll see you next time. If the subject then finds another healer, suppliments with potions, whatever, that's great for them, not my problem. I saved them and got them fighting fit. This spreads my healing around, or conserves it so it lasts longer, however one wants to look at it.

Yeah, I've known healers like this (though my character tends to go to either healers in his group or his friends). They quickly find themselves abandoned on the field and left to fend for themselves against those things swinging 20 Massive/Magic/Normal/Silver/Chaos. No skin off my nose. =P

 

[Draven]

End of day, it takes backbone in the player to choose to do what they want with their own spells.

End of day, some people play this game to have fun with other people, and not spend big fights being condescended to for how they choose to use their spells. They want to make friends, have those friends like them, and take them with them on mods, and just have a good time.

And this culture is polluted with an expectation of healbots, and the new rules aren't just embracing that, they're making Healbot the most powerful aspect of Earth spellcasting.

Because why bother making Earth Casters good at fighting? That's the job for Real Heroes.

 

[mikestrauss]

End of day, some people play this game to have fun with other people, and not spend big fights being condescended to for how they choose to use their spells. They want to make friends, have those friends like them, and take them with them on mods, and just have a good time.

And this culture is polluted with an expectation of healbots, and the new rules aren't just embracing that, they're making Healbot the most powerful aspect of Earth spellcasting.

Because why bother making Earth Casters good at fighting? That's the job for Real Heroes.

The toxic culture that assumes it can dictate how another person plays their character is a problem that should be addressed. But rules shouldn't be dictated by this toxicity. The culture should be addressed with discussion both en mass and individually, as necessary. HQ had this type of toxic culture in the early years. I am happy to say that it has almost completely disappeared, in large part because the HQ staff took a stand against it and made a number of public announcements about sportsmanship (with particular emphasis on how earth casters were treated in game). Based on how you are responding to this, it sounds like your game has reached the point that such intervention is necessary.

I will repeat that I do not think rules should be dictated by toxic culture. However, if rules have the ability to influence toxic culture, I firmly believe these new rules are more helpful than harmful. They mimic an idea that appeared in 3rd edition D&D that was specifically designed to make clerics feel less like heal-bots and more generally useful. The idea there was that by putting healing at every level (and allowing clerics to swap out as needed), they were more able to memorize non-healing spells that interested them. The same is true with these rules. No longer should earth casters feel limited with 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th level selections. Because healing is at every level, they can choose the spells that interest them the most at each level and then fill in with healing after that.

TLDR: More healing makes less need for healbots, not more.

And hopefully that is the last off-topic post I need to make on a subject that I feel doesn't really belong in the playtest forum (because it isn't really a discussion of the rules but rather of a toxic cultural element of our game that already exists and will almost certainly exist regardless of the outcome of this playtest).

As for the main topic, I still think the slick solution is: Destroy lesser undead, deliver a purify effect to greater undead.

-MS

 

[Draven]

No longer should earth casters feel limited with 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th level selections. Because healing is at every level, they can choose the spells that interest them the most at each level and then fill in with healing after that.

TLDR: More healing makes less need for healbots, not more.

-MS

That's a very narrow, and incorrect, viewpoint.

While it -is- true that EC are getting more healing spells (and more healing per level, at that), that's purely part of the overall story that's .9.

The other part?

1) Fighters are going to have a significant boost to their Body totals as a result of Hearty. This will be particularly true for races with a Body advantage, who will pay less for Hearty.

2) Non-augmented Earth Storm is great healing, safe away from combat, but absolutely terrible for an actual backpack support.

As a result, if I'm going to fight near the front line with Fighters, I'm still dumping multiple high level spells PER wave to take care of them.

Your position sounds great on paper, but it falls utterly apart in an actual combat. Maybe if your chapter can rely that much on refitting, cool, but some can't.

 

[Pantzike]

Yeah, I've known healers like this (though my character tends to go to either healers in his group or his friends). They quickly find themselves abandoned on the field and left to fend for themselves against those things swinging 20 Massive/Magic/Normal/Silver/Chaos. No skin off my nose. =P

Or they don't, become known as specialist casters and become fixtures in town?

It's about finding your own place, not being forced into one. Or that's what I teach my apprentices and squires.

Have fun with this conversation, I'm out.

 

[Draven]

Or they don't, become known as specialist casters and become fixtures in town?

It's about finding your own place, not being forced into one. Or that's what I teach my apprentices and squires.

Have fun with this conversation, I'm out.

It's cool. Thanks for the subtle gaslighting.

 

[Alavatar]

Considering 3 of the recent threads in the ARB 2.0 Playtesting forum are based on the idea that Earth magic is underwhelming ... and continued discussion on that idea in the respective threads will further depart the OP of those threads ... is there a place for players to collaborate on constructive concepts that could improve/overhaul Earth magic based on that feedback? I suspect the intent would be to work collaboratively to develop a proposal to submit to the owners.

 

[Avaran]

Considering 3 of the recent threads in the ARB 2.0 Playtesting forum are based on the idea that Earth magic is underwhelming ... and continued discussion on that idea in the respective threads will further depart the OP of those threads ... is there a place for players to collaborate on constructive concepts that could improve/overhaul Earth magic based on that feedback? I suspect the intent would be to work collaboratively to develop a proposal to submit to the owners.

It feels like it would be a wasted effort unless the owners are open to that kind of feedback/input; we haven't seen any indication thus far that they would be (on this specific topic).

 

[Graham Wolsey]

If you think throwing a Death is bad now wait until Expand Enchantment is removed and there aren't Life items anymore.

Concerning the topic at hand. I'm greatly in favor of buffing Destroy Undead's effect against greater undead. I think if it did 100 damage to Greater Undead that would be sufficient to have people at least consider taking it, though with how good Confine is I suspect many will still pass on it. 50 is a ridiculously low number and needs to be increased.

 

[Avaran]

Concerning the topic at hand. I'm greatly in favor of buffing Destroy Undead's effect against greater undead. I think if it did 100 damage to Greater Undead that would be sufficient to have people at least consider taking it, though with how good Confine is I suspect many will still pass on it. 50 is a ridiculously low number and needs to be increased.

One of the things you really have to watch out for is Body Bloat. You can't make your spells do too much damage, otherwise, in order to make your Undead live as long as you want them to, you will have to buff their Body Points. This puts the super-nerfed melee classes at a huge disadvantage, or groups that have run out of spells at a disadvantage.

Look at it this way. A Greater Undead that has 200 Body because Plot wants it to take two, will take 20 hits to by someone swinging 10 constant damage. Or 10 hits by 2 people each swinging 5's.

Alternatives are putting defenses against Destroy Undead and keeping body low, but then you're throwing 2-4+ Destroy Undeads and that often doesn't feel good either.
]
Double damage to anything baseline has to take these things into consideration (I don't like this mechanic as a baseline).