Do you like Permanent Duration?

As a powergaming nerd who wishes to get my character the best chances possible of succeeding and surviving? Yes.
As a person who has watched and help run this game for six years? Not really, no. I wouldn't be sad if it left.
 
Yes, but I'd change it.

I would make all newly-created permanent items come with a non-optional Spirit Lock. I would also change the rules for items that expire so that extenders can be replaced at any time before the item expires, thus creating a new expiration date for that item.

For existing permanent items I would give the owner of the item a choice when they next go to logistics with the item. They can choose to spirit lock the item or choose to have the item become a 5 year item starting with that day's date. This they can have the item until they perm, or choose to burn scrolls to keep that item active every few years in order to keep the item shareable.

This would also help with bloat as the extenders could either be used to make new items or to maintain existing ones, overall lowering the number of magic items in the game over time. For chapters that offer LCO scrolls, casting an LCO extender makes the item permanently LCO. This would benefit people who want to sell extenders as well as 5 year extenders would likely become as valuable as Permanences to certain parties.

I believe that permanent items should be a thing, but would much rather they be tied to a specific PC or a cost be associated with having a long term item be able to be passed off.
 
Yes. I like Permanent Duration on a personal level.

I don't like scraping and bargaining and fighting (figuratively) with other players / characters over Ritual Scroll and Reagent resources. Getting my Permanent 20-rit item completed will, for me, improve my game because I will feel like I do not need to search for or cause drama over Ritual Scrolls and Reagents.

This will indirectly improve the game for those around me as I will then focus more on helping them as opposed to helping myself.

I realize that I am not most players. I also realize that many players have had bad encounters with other players / characters that are very self-serving, hording Magic Items, Ritual Scrolls, and Reagents, which has left a bad taste in many people's mouths related to Magic Items.
 
Well ****. I had a whole thing typed up and then it went away. My opinion is in line with Toddo's. I like his idea a lot. I would change lock to link, though. Often, permanent items are a group effort, and it would be nice if you could have a permanent item pass on after you perm.

I liked it when you used to be able to extend something for a year. Then extend it for another year. Then a third.

I do not think that 20 rit cap is necessary. I have a 16 rit item. I like the rules imposed on dragon stamped items.
 
I don't like it one bit. I think it contributes to bloat and hurts MI turn over. 20 rit items should go away at some point.

After really thinking about it, I don't like the idea of being able to extend magic items after the initial extender is cast. That just creates another race to horde extenders to make your item last as long as you play the game (which isn't that much better than permanence but still better).
 
Nope. I don't like them one bit. For several reasons :

They break the game economy something fierce by creating items of value that, short of the rep and tag both being lost or stolen by plot, will never be expended.

On the same token, they break scaling by providing a route to expend resources for increased character power that does not go away, and is faster to obtain than build.

They create bad (likely unintentional) metagaming situations as characters can perm or retire, giving their stuff to their group, and then the player's new character may end up running with the same people due to OOG friendships and be handed the same items out of OOG habit.

They create a situation where an item being DFM'd or stolen becomes a customer service issue due to how much investment it represents to the player, especially when these things happen at away games.

But most of all, I hate that they are so overwhelmingly useful on a long term basis that they warp the entire game economy into being based on components and scrolls rather than coin because production is seen as entirely useless compared to building up a very powerful magic item that needs never be replaced. The hoarding this requires essentially ensures that 'lesser' magic items will not be commonly constructed so long as someone is gathering things for their uber-thingy, and thus less experienced formalists are essentially cut out of ever getting to do the fun RP of item casting.
 
Yes, I like permanent duration.

My character which I have played for 17 seasons does not need to participate in the rat race that is chasing components and scrolls because he has some permanent items. If he did not have these items, he would continue to aggressively pursue and hoard components and scrolls.

It allows me to play the character once a year or even every other year and still have some cool items when and if I play him.

It allows newer players a better chance to collect comps & scrolls because I am not chasing them.

It allows me to concentrate solely on plot instead of stuff.

In essence, my climb up the power ladder for my high level character is complete. This is a boon for myself and for every other player in the game. It lets the plot be more important than the stuff by tenfold if not a hundredfold.
 
Three things there:
1) I have had that same experience with two of my characters at this point, only one of whom has perm items. The other one has preserved stuff, and I collect some stuff when I need to. This may be more of a high level/long term player/player maturity thing as much as a "get a perm item or you'll have to get stuff 'till you die" trend.
2) On a "Per use" system, playing a character once a year would make even items with 12 charges (a 'per year' item, nowish) effectively permanent. Running out of duration wouldn't be a serious concern.
3) What's your horde look like? I'd bet you've got over 100 gold sitting somewhere in a box that you don't use. Why not drop 10, 20, or even 50 gold every few years to buy your 'recharge' set? Sure, it costs your character money, but it's not doing anything sitting there anyways. It provides a money sink that the game desperately needs at high level right now.
 
As a player I like Permanent Duration, for many of the same reasons Scott noted.

As an owner I know that if permanent items get out of hand I have plenty of tools at hand to get them out of the game.

As someone who's seen the avarice, infighting, derision, and disgust that inevitably arises out of the squabbling when the scroll or cat appear, my owner self (glee) is at war with my player self (sad).
 
obcidian_bandit said:
Three things there:
1) I have had that same experience with two of my characters at this point, only one of whom has perm items. The other one has preserved stuff, and I collect some stuff when I need to. This may be more of a high level/long term player/player maturity thing as much as a "get a perm item or you'll have to get stuff 'till you die" trend.
2) On a "Per use" system, playing a character once a year would make even items with 12 charges (a 'per year' item, nowish) effectively permanent. Running out of duration wouldn't be a serious concern.
3) What's your horde look like? I'd bet you've got over 100 gold sitting somewhere in a box that you don't use. Why not drop 10, 20, or even 50 gold every few years to buy your 'recharge' set? Sure, it costs your character money, but it's not doing anything sitting there anyways. It provides a money sink that the game desperately needs at high level right now.
Click to expand...

1 - I agree that absolutely has something to do with it. I also play characters with few or no magic items and still have lots of fun at the game. I play them more often than my high powered character.
2 & 3 - I'm not necessarily against those sort of changes to the game. But I also like the idea of once the hero gets his magic sword, he has it. It's a staple of myth and fantasy literature. After all, Sting didn't lose it's magic afte sitting on the shelf for decades. So I think I'd like the "recharge" more than the first suggestion. It also gets more gold back into the chapter instead of just sitting in a box in my house.
 
Duke Frost said:
In essence, my climb up the power ladder for my high level character is complete. This is a boon for myself and for every other player in the game. It lets the plot be more important than the stuff by tenfold if not a hundredfold.
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You know, I have never though of it that way. That is a really strong point.
 
Alright, here's my whole view on Permanence.

I don't see any problem with Permanence. I see a problem with permanent 20-rit items.
Once upon a time, permanent items went out as treasure. They may have had three whole effects on them. Now a-days, you see an item with one rit and permanence, and you're all like, wth?!

That said, how long items are around isn't even THAT disrupting. There are more offensive things in the ritual database than Permanence.

I'll not name names, but I will share this:
This past spring, I went on a mod. On this mod was a character using a combination of ritual effects.
This character is an adept with no weapon proficiencies.
We fought COMMON monsters.
This adept dealt 32 points of damage with each weapon strike from the front (non-backstab damage.)

Is PERMANENCE the thing that is killing this game? Really?
 
Zymm said:
This past spring, I went on a mod. On this mod was a character using a combination of ritual effects.
This character is an adept with no weapon proficiencies.
We fought COMMON monsters.
This adept dealt 32 points of damage with each weapon strike from the front (non-backstab damage.)

Is PERMANENCE the thing that is killing this game? Really?
Click to expand...
No, this is a problem with golems (it took me a second to realize the most obvious/common answer here was a +8 undead slayer, 6 points of strength, and an Earth Aura. In fact, I'd almost be willing to bet money that this was the circumstance it's so common). I'd be ok with limiting slayers more, or Auras, or whatever, to keep this on topic. The problem is that even without the monster strength, you can hand a two ritual magic item to a first level character and their damage output is 20 versus many monsters. Make that item permanent and it doesn't just go away after a few games. It's powerful enough that everyone wants one, so they're always worth making, even though they never go away. (My solution was to quit sending out undead. That fixed the 'double damage' problem pretty quick.)
 
I used to like Permanent Duration.

But that was back when we had one +1 permanent magic sword in game.

Meeemory, all alone in the moooonliiiight, I can smile at the old days...
:tears:
 
obcidian_bandit said:
Zymm said:
This past spring, I went on a mod. On this mod was a character using a combination of ritual effects.
This character is an adept with no weapon proficiencies.
We fought COMMON monsters.
This adept dealt 32 points of damage with each weapon strike from the front (non-backstab damage.)

Is PERMANENCE the thing that is killing this game? Really?
Click to expand...
No, this is a problem with golems (it took me a second to realize the most obvious/common answer here was a +8 undead slayer, 6 points of strength, and an Earth Aura. In fact, I'd almost be willing to bet money that this was the circumstance it's so common). I'd be ok with limiting slayers more, or Auras, or whatever, to keep this on topic. The problem is that even without the monster strength, you can hand a two ritual magic item to a first level character and their damage output is 20 versus many monsters. Make that item permanent and it doesn't just go away after a few games. It's powerful enough that everyone wants one, so they're always worth making, even though they never go away. (My solution was to quit sending out undead. That fixed the 'double damage' problem pretty quick.)
Click to expand...

New Hampshire is an Undead heavy chapter (It's IG name is Deadlands) and they made it so auras and slayers can't stack. There is no way for my scholar do to 20 points of damage to an undead with a single weapon hit. I can choose either the slayer on the team weapon, or the aura. It's a solution that kept damage from getting out of hand because even though you're not supposed to stat monsters with magic items in mind, when Undead Slayers and Earth Auras are common (because Undead are so pervasive almost everywhere) it's hard to make a fight challenging for the Haves while not rez-causing for the Have-Nots.



To get back on topic, I like Permanent Duration both as a player and a former staff member. I like it for many of the reasons Scott mentioned. If you've been playing the game for a long time it helps end the stuff-questing aspect of your game. It lets you step aside so others can get something, too. If the goal of your character has been to build an epic amazing weapon that can be passed down to your child or heir to fight the scourge of Ancient Mariners that has been plaguing your island home for generations, and you manage to get the stuff together to make it, good for you. That makes for a good story. And possibly a new plotline for your local plot team to muck around with.

It's a commodity, with a max of 2 per chapter per year (realistically). If a town or a team gets a hold of one there will be disagreement over who or what it goes on, just like any and every limited resource in reality or fiction. Not all the goings on in a weekend (or year or 3) need to come from plot. It's really OK if characters disagree and fight over things.
It's when people forget to draw the line between IG and OOG that there becomes a problem. IMO, that problem isn't the existence of the Permanence ritual, but the mindset of the players involved.

I'd be alright with CSS and Regen becoming able to be permanent via higher diff on the ritual (or an additional catalyst that can be found) and making Perm only able to be put out once a year. Or making it exponentially harder and more resource consuming to cap something with a Permanence but easier or possible to recharge something with a Preserve or Boost.

My favorite solution?
Change treasure policy to get rid of the need to put out pre-made magic items by making all the scrolls, comps and catalysts cost production points (with some limitations on frequency of output). If you currently don't put out MIs, you're putting out either lots of coin (which costs the chapter real money) or production (that makes it so PCs only put build into damage-inducing skills rather than production skills), or asset tags, which probably eventually get turned in for coin or used to offset production costs. Make Preserves more plentiful and suddenly you'll watch people make their own tailor-made items that don't always HAVE to be permanent because now there are more scrolls to choose from rather than pre-made stuff that might just end up in the bottom of a box. It will reduce overall MI bloat and make people feel fulfilled in terms of the stuff they have, and scholars who can enjoy the build they've spent in ritual ranks. (I'm one of them, it makes me biased towards this part of the plan.)

In short: permanence good, player attitude sometimes bad, change needed relatively soon.
 
I removed the posts that I felt were out of line and causing some issues between players. I also moved this post to General Discussion as it was not about a specific rules change or new rule.

~Joe
 
obcidian_bandit said:
(My solution was to quit sending out undead. That fixed the 'double damage' problem pretty quick.)
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I always liked using "takes 1/2 damage from weapons" on undead types for dealing with that when I want them to last longer than 2 seconds.

On topic, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the Permanence ritual. I think with careful planning on the part of the chapter, and MI regulation, permanent magic items don't have to ruin the game (see Paul's response). That's not an indictment of chapters that used to put stuff out, they didn't know what impact that would have, it was a different game, I'd imagine, and I think in the long run as long as chapters learn from the past -- not only what people did wrong, but what they did right too -- it's all good.

One thing I would bring up, though, is the impact any changes to Permanence would have on people with CSS or Regen rituals on them. Because you cannot buy back deaths incurred with those rituals on your spirit, it's a big deal to have one cast on you and not have it be permanent, especially considering there's no guarantee of seeing another CSS/Regen Catalyst.

It's a commodity, with a max of 2 per chapter per year (realistically).
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True, though not every chapter drops two per year; I'd say a more realistic rate is 1 every 3 years (some possibly even longer, depending on chapter size).
 
Avaran said:
True, though not every chapter drops two per year; I'd say a more realistic rate is 1 every 3 years (some possibly even longer, depending on chapter size).
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I don't think that's true, unless you've been doing a lot of chapter hopping that I don't know about. OR has put them out on the order of 2 per year, but possibly as low as 1 per year (I've personally had two in my hand at the same time as a PC, so my perspective may be a little skewed, but I guarantee that they're out there). Seattle has put out just over one per year (some years just one, but usually two) for the past few years, too.

Again, I wouldn't can the ritual wholesale, I'd put a 'max event use' on it with a way to recharge rituals.

I'd do the following:

Base magic items get 24 'days' of use (my number here could be negotiated, but that's one event a month, so I'd argue for something on that level. Anyways, the number isn't the important part, the concept is). Base magic items may be 'recharged' once. (You could argue 'may not be recharged,' but I like throwing in the one time pop. I could be convinced otherwise.)
"Preserved" magic items get 24 days of use, but may be 'recharged' five times.
"Permanent" magic items get 24 days of use, but may be 'recharged an unlimited number of times.

The cost (not difficulty in the ritual caster sense, but the value of goods it requires) should go up by number of rituals or power of rituals perhaps, and potentially go up as a function of how many times the thing has already been recharged. The recharge mechanism could either be a ritual or a straight up component sink or something like Spellcrafting. The mechanic there could be altered, but the overall idea is what I'm interested in advancing.
 
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