Dual Shields?

[Paul]

I have a question pertaining to the shield skill. If I was to play a character who used a shield in each hand, what skills would I have to buy? I'm not holding a weapon in my left hand, so I wouldn't have to buy the Florentine and Two Weapon skills. But, if using "weapon" to define any object, I couldn't hold alchemy in my left hand. Would a Marshal please give me clarification on what skills I have to buy? Thank you.

Incidentally, you can cast spells on yourself if your hand is touching your own clothing, right? So if I crossed my arms over my chest I could cast spells on myself, even without having either hand free? Thanks.

 

[Kauss]

I have a question pertaining to the shield skill. If I was to play a character who used a shield in each hand, what skills would I have to buy? I'm not holding a weapon in my left hand, so I wouldn't have to buy the Florentine and Two Weapon skills. But, if using "weapon" to define any object, I couldn't hold alchemy in my left hand. Would a Marshal please give me clarification on what skills I have to buy? Thank you.

Incidentally, you can cast spells on yourself if your hand is touching your own clothing, right? So if I crossed my arms over my chest I could cast spells on myself, even without having either hand free? Thanks.

Well, a few things to know. A shield is a weapon, but one you cant use to attack. However it does follow most of the other rules for weapons, and is even refered to as one a few times. So you can use 2 shields, if you have florentine and two weapons (and shield) if all the shields follow all other rules. (example, with 2 weapons, one must be less than 32 inch.)
Now as to spells and alchemy. In the addendum, part 94 titles gasses, it states that you are allowed to throw gas packets from a hand which is also holding something else.. So you may throw gasses even with a weapon in hand.
(as a note, also in the addendium under part 58:spell rules it says you may not throw a packet if you have any other item, IG or OOC in your hands. I think this is where the confusion is, since alchemical packets and magic ones follow slightly diffrent rules.)
Does that help?

 

[Paul]

Yeah, thanks. It's disappointing, but if that's what the ruling is . . .

Oh, well. I guess that Miren won't be able to use his trademark for a long, long time.

 

[jpariury]

Well, a few things to know. A shield is a weapon, but one you cant use to attack. However it does follow most of the other rules for weapons, and is even refered to as one a few times. So you can use 2 shields, if you have florentine and two weapons (and shield) if all the shields follow all other rules. (example, with 2 weapons, one must be less than 32 inch.)

I would disagree. Shield is not a weapon, it is a style, covered under Stylemaster, not Weaponmaster. You may not waylay, slay, assassinate, eviscerate, or use any other weapon-use improvement type skills with a shield. (Conceptually, I have no problem with using Parry, but consistency would seem to indicate that it should not be used) You will note that shields are covered in the section of the rulebook just prior to the section clearly labelled Weapons (pg 28). Secondly, using two shields without turtling would be very difficult. Finally, using two shields is not what is intended by the rules or the game designers, so I believe that I stand in good reasoning for saying "No" to using two shields.

Now as to spells and alchemy. In the addendum, part 94 titles gasses, it states that you are allowed to throw gas packets from a hand which is also holding something else.. So you may throw gasses even with a weapon in hand.

The verbiage in the addendum ("packet", as opposed to "spell packet", "magical packet" or so on) implies that throwing ANY packet from a hand wielding a weapon-rep is not permitted.

(as a note, also in the addendium under part 58:spell rules it says you may not throw a packet if you have any other item, IG or OOC in your hands. I think this is where the confusion is, since alchemical packets and magic ones follow slightly diffrent rules.)

To clarify, you may indeed touchcast while holding a shield in your casting hand. Per the addendum:

58: Spell Rules: You may not throw a packet if you have any other item, IG or OOG in your hand. Your hand must be free in order to throw a packet. You may touchcast with an item in your hand.

(Bolding mine)

 

[Kauss]

I would disagree. Shield is not a weapon, it is a style, covered under Stylemaster, not Weaponmaster. You may not waylay, slay, assassinate, eviscerate, or use any other weapon-use improvement type skills with a shield. (Conceptually, I have no problem with using Parry, but consistency would seem to indicate that it should not be used) You will note that shields are covered in the section of the rulebook just prior to the section clearly labelled Weapons (pg 28). Secondly, using two shields without turtling would be very difficult. Finally, using two shields is not what is intended by the rules or the game designers, so I believe that I stand in good reasoning for saying "No" to using two shields.


The verbiage in the addendum ("packet", as opposed to "spell packet", "magical packet" or so on) implies that throwing ANY packet from a hand wielding a weapon-rep is not permitted.


To clarify, you may indeed touchcast while holding a shield in your casting hand. Per the addendum: (Bolding mine)

Actally, it is treated as a weapon for pages if I recall tho.
On the matter of packets, I propose that it said packet and not spell packet, as it was in the section called Spell Rules. In the gasses section, of the same adendium, it states in the section called gasses (the page 94 addendium) it makes sure to mention gas packets. The wording is as follows. "94:Gasses: You are allowed to throw gas packets from a hand which is also holding something else."

 

[jpariury]

I agree that the page policy treats shields in the same manner as weapons. There might need to be a tweaking of the page policy to better clarify this.

RE: Alchemy packets vs spell packets: I believe that the addendum reflects the intent of the rules and rulemakers more clearly: packets should not be thrown from a hand holding another object.

 

[Anonymous]

You will note that shields are covered in the section of the rulebook just prior to the section clearly labelled Weapons (pg 28). Secondly, using two shields without turtling would be very difficult. Finally, using two shields is not what is intended by the rules or the game designers, so I believe that I stand in good reasoning for saying "No" to using two shields.

However, you'll also not that Shield is listed under "Weapon Skills" on page 37, as a Weapon, on the creation chart on 39, and a general kind of implication on 41, under blacksmithing, 'cause a shield can be strengthened, but it states that "weapons" can be strengthened. The description of Disarm on 70 states that a shield is not considered a weapon (for purposes of ending the incant with "Weapon", a shield may be the target of a Disarm) for purposes of that spell, implying that it is an irregularity within the system.

However, it's really a moot point, because it does say under the description of the Shield skill on 50 that it allows a character to use a (read: singular) shield. Besides, I totally agree with the turtling thing, and with the contrary to intent thing. Besides being unweildy and most likely unsafe.

And, as an aside, Parry and Reposte should be usable with a shield. I believe that discussion was had on the marshal board some time ago, but I can't find any concrete source to quote. A parry is a block. That's what a shield does.

~Matt, OR variety

 

[Kauss]

I agree that the page policy treats shields in the same manner as weapons. There might need to be a tweaking of the page policy to better clarify this.

RE: Alchemy packets vs spell packets: I believe that the addendum reflects the intent of the rules and rulemakers more clearly: packets should not be thrown from a hand holding another object.

You do realise that both rules we have noted are in the addendium? So the line I quoted was added intentanaly. I personly cant see why one addendium rule should be taken to invalidate another (the gasses one) that is later in the same addendium.

 

[Kauss]

does[/i] say under the description of the Shield skill on 50 that it allows a character to use a (read: singular) shield. Besides, I totally agree with the turtling thing, and with the contrary to intent thing. Besides being unweildy and most likely unsafe.


~Matt, OR variety

Keep in mind that one handed edged and one handed blunt also have the same wording. They both say it allows you to use one edged/blunt weapon (depending on the skill). You need one of the 2 weapon skills to use more than one.
As to turtling, 2 shields are actally much harder to use than sword and board. It makes you very defencive, and a big packet magnet, and since turtling is an active thing, i would have to say we would have to try it out and see if its true. Unless the shields were the right shape, I bet they would block eachothers efectiveness somewhat.

 

[jpariury]

Matt,

Like I said, conceptually, I don't have a problem, however, consistency would lean towards not allowing it.

I suspect that shield production is listed on 37 and 39 because it would just be silly to have its own listing (since its very clearly not armor). Similar idea for strengthening (heck, you can make strengthened locks if you really want to, but that doesn't make them weapons). I would suggest that page 70 clarifies the intent of the rules: a shield is not a weapon.

Phil,

Yeah, I saw that, however, the rewording of the line I quote occurred a month or so after the wording on the line you quote. There was month-long period of debate that occurred on the whole throwing packets with a weapon in hand thing on the Yahoo Marshal board, the end result being the modified line I listed. Most likely its just inherited old wording/ruling that has been overlooked. Wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Balryn]

Because I have to ask

1-Can a packet be thrown from a hand if you are holding one or more other packets in it?

2-Is having a mushroom of packets considered to be another item in hand, or since you can grasp something else can you still cast as the hand is free?

I guess this goes to "what does IN hands" mean, and is a packet (spell or alchemy) interfere?

Barry

 

[jpariury]

1-Can a packet be thrown from a hand if you are holding one or more other packets in it?

By the wording of the rule quoted above (specifically the mention of having an object IG or OOG), no.

2-Is having a mushroom of packets considered to be another item in hand, or since you can grasp something else can you still cast as the hand is free?

Packets are IG, in that they can be seen and roleplayed as visible, however, they are not IG items, in that they cannot be Disarmed via the effect of the same name. As such, you may hold an appropriate amount of packets in a hand that is wielding an IG object such as a sword, shield, or staff. (pg 56, middle column, last sentence leading into third column, for appropriate reasoning)

I guess this goes to "what does IN hands" mean, and is a packet (spell or alchemy) interfere?

"In" hand I would leave to player judgement and final word on the marshal call on a case-by-case basis. The general idea being that if it is attached to a finger or palm (ie, packet in the palm of your glove), its in your hand. If, OTOH, you strap them to your forearm, all is good and safe.

 

[Kauss]

Packets are IG, in that they can be seen and roleplayed as visible, however, they are not IG items, in that they cannot be Disarmed via the effect of the same name. As such, you may hold an appropriate amount of packets in a hand that is wielding an IG object such as a sword, shield, or staff. (pg 56, middle column, last sentence leading into third column, for appropriate reasoning)

Actally thats not true. Spell packets are not IG items that can be disarmed and the such. Arrow packets and alchemical packets can be effected as such. If I use a shatter on the alchemical packet in your hand, then you lose an alchemy tag.
We really need to get a brakedown of the diffrent packet types and rules. More than once the rules use the term packet, and then go back and have a diffrent rule on a diffrent kind of packet. Example, if I throw alchemy or a spell, and hit you in a non weapon hit location (hand,groin,head) you still take it. But if an arrow packet (also being a weapon) hits the same location, it isnt a valid hit.

 

[jpariury]

It is pretty safe to say that rulebook references (and my comments above) of "packet" refer to spell packets, rather than alchemy or arrow packets. Rules for alchemy and arrow packets are covered specifically under those particular sections, as they are the exception, rather than the rule (so to speak).