Economics

[obcidian_bandit]

I was reading through the packet, and there are some things that I think are unclear. (It also references Crocavia/etc. throughout.)

First, I never see where it says when you must stop drawing beads for caravans and the like, but I assume it's the same as for ships. The number of beads you get for caravaning is, however, very unclear.
It doesn't say how many 'base beads' you get, other then possibly in the example, where other math seems to be wrong. It states that you gain 1 bead per hundredweight, and an additional one for every 5 hundredweight. However, it states that an 11 hundredweight caravan would only recieve 6 beads. One of these two cannot be correct. If 4 beads is the base, and the beads/weight numbers are correct, shouldn't that caravan recieve 17 white beads?

For the workshops, what exactly is doubled?

Workshops can be purchased for players with the Craftsman (Engineer), Craftsman (Mason), Craftsman (Carpenter) or Craftsman (Shipwright) Skill, doubling the bonuses they are awarded for Wagon, Estate and Ship building as described below, but not doubling the silver received for those Skills.

There aren't 'bonuses' listed with any of these items, and if it doesn't relate to the money they produce, do they add more beads?

I just glanced through it, but those were the primary questions I have for now.

 

[obcidian_bandit]

Also, it says you draw at each event. Does this mean that you do not draw at gamedays? If you can draw at gamedays, do you have to be present to do so? (In the case that one is buying the game with gobbies.) Can you draw if you are NPCing?

 

[jpariury]

Thanks, Matt, for starting a discussion on this. I was planning on starting one up. One thing I want to make clear is that this packet is subject to adjustment by the owner, plot and the HoR. I left everything as is for now since I would think we would want the author's permission before editting the doc for now.

First, I never see where it says when you must stop drawing beads for caravans and the like, but I assume it's the same as for ships.

Last sentence of paragraph 5 under Caravans:

A red and a blue bead may be placed into the bag by the Plot Committee. The red representing a devastating catastrophe, the blue a large financial or plot award. If either of these beads are drawn, it also ends the run, just as a black one does.

So, yes, just like ships.

The number of beads you get for caravaning is, however, very unclear. It doesn't say how many 'base beads' you get

Good point. Four, same as a ship.

It states that you gain 1 bead per hundredweight, and an additional one for every 5 hundredweight. However, it states that an 11 hundredweight caravan would only recieve 6 beads. One of these two cannot be correct.

Actually, both are correct in as much as they state, but the example is incomplete.
4 (base)
11 based on size
2 bonus beads (1 bonus for size 6, 1 more for size 10)
The size beads are neither bonus beads nor base beads. For example, if you used up all but 1 hundredweight of space in your 11 hundredweight caravan for improvements, you would get 7 beads. Bonus beads are not impacted by how much space you've dedicated to improvements.

For the workshops, what exactly is doubled?

This is one of the incompleted sections. As the beginning of the doc indicates, the intention was to have nine methods of "Wealth":
Art, Assets, Caravans, Crafts, Estates, Products, Props, Ships, and Workshops.

As far as I know, only Ships and Caravans were completed, although I had heard rumor that Estates was just about complete, if not completed and just not yet published. One of the few hints I see in the packet is that Workshops and Assets give a fixed set of benefits, whatever those might be. (Second paragraph under Ships).

Also, it says you draw at each event. Does this mean that you do not draw at gamedays?

I've never attended at a game day after I bought ships, so I couldn't tell you. Phil might be able to answer that better than I would.

If you can draw at gamedays, do you have to be present to do so? (In the case that one is buying the game with gobbies.)

For events, the answer is yes, so I suspect that the answer for game days, if allowed at all, is yes as well. I was not permitted to make draws for the ships Gregor bought under Trianna's and Kerjal's names, for instance.

Can you draw if you are NPCing?

I forget, honestly. I think I was allowed to for one event, but honestly I may be mistaken.

I know that I and Phil have used the system pretty extensively, and Bryan and Holly have been using it a little as well. Has anyone else? I'm interested in hearing opinions on the system and hear how people have felt about it.

 

[Polare]

NPCs should not be allowed to use assets for one of their characters, just like they don't get craftsman money for their characters or production opportunities for their characters (gobbie stamps are used separately from Alchemy/Scroll Crafting/Potion Crafting/Blacksmiting).

For the October event we will continue to use existing rules from the Economics packet. After that they will be reexamined and (hopefully) expanded.

-Bryan

 

[Balryn]

One of the biggest obstacles I have with this addition is that there are no rules for taking action against an IG piece of property that is not phys repped.

A similar system was used in NW for a short while, but the very nature of these rules is to insert a non-phys repped item into a game that is supposed to revolve all around repping items. We play a LARP, not a table top.

Ships, caravans, etc... should be stealable or capable of being damaged in-game.

I.E. - in the case of ships, what happens if a crew of sailors wants to steal your ship? or scuttle it to the bottom of the bay? For caravans, what IG system is there for attacking it, looting, or otherwise preventing it from travel?

I realize that these things can be controlled somewhat by plot allowing PCs to take action against them, but in previous administrations there were half a dozen inquiries that were turned down by myself, and I had heard complaints of others requesting to do the same thing.

These rules, as they are, promote removing IG money to an OOG board game system that doesn't interact with the live action part of the game. From a LARP perspective, I feel they go against the basic nature of the game.

With that said, I'd love to see some actual parts added into these rules to bring the ships and caravans IG, with phys reps when requested.

This goes along with the same spirit of the rules saying I can't summon a horde of undead without providing NPCs, and I feel there should be a similar rule saying you should attempt to provide an occassional physical aspect to a ship or caravan. If there is an IG benefit (or disadvantage), I'd like to see an IG rep.

For instance, in the NW system it was required that a PC be the captain of a each ship. Larger ships required an actual crew (I think the largest needed 4 pc personas). I'm not saying that someone has to phys rep 50 sailors, but failing to give any type of IG rep to it takes the Live Action out of LARP.

Any ideas on making these less table-top style?

~Barry

 

[Seattle_Jim]

This is a much, much older version than was last being used, however with the loss of data from my computer and the thumb drive, I do not know if we can find a copy of the more current packet, or if simply this was the one they are electing to use. Much of what is being discussed was addressed in later iterations of the packet. It also included actual rules for building estates. If the current staff is interested, I will see about trying to see if anyone has a more current copy. I found it on my harddrive, but I could not recover it.

 

[Seattle_Jim]

To clarify on some points. You may only draw for ships and caravans (and estates) at weekend events where you PC.

Originally we were going to add different types of workshops, but ultimately workshops are jus the standard workshops/labs listed in the book.

The nine include both new and standard forms of economics.

Art; new and was completed, not in this old version
Assets: Basically the old item tags
Caravans: new and included
Crafts: Craftsman skills from the book
Estates: new and was completed, not in this old version
Products: Production skills from the book
Props: Gems, coin, etc.
Ships: new and included
Workshops: As per the book and with our decision probably should be put under Products.

Estates, Caravans, and Ships are generally designed as to be more than a day away from the game site in game, thus avoiding the phys-repped issue. Barry, I don't know who spoke to about raiding a caravan, but we did in fact run at least one mod day of people attacking someone's caravan and my own PC was able to sabotage another player's caravan.

The main goal of the economics package was to provide another means for coin to come back into the chapter- we had coin hoarders and more often than not merchants were robbed than paid for their goods. It was not the only means in which we tried to get coin back in and I have zero interest into discussing the hows and whys of getting coin back, but would rather focus on the actual packet itself.

Now of course all of this may be invalid, as it is up to the current regime to decide what is the intent of the package.

 

[Balryn]

If coinage is a problem.. just issue gems or some other rare commodity that stays IG. I have hundreds of coin, but no one ever said there was an issue for coinage to run the game (I thought more would just be ordered). You could also just implement a banker persona, to convert large commodities of coin to a paper system if staff needed more coin for an event.

When put into an economics calculator and number crunching the math from a business perspective, there are some instances of the system breaking down (either for good or for bad, depending on how you look at it).

It would be much more fun and interesting if an actual encounter/mod took place were a high-stakes merchant said 'Hey Balryn, invest 200 gold to do X, and you may see Y as a return. If you really want to hit it big, find my A,B, and C, and it'll increases our profits by twenty percent.'

Connecting the investment of money to IG stuff happening is just more interesting than pulling beads. IMO.

In regards to the packet, it would be good if the irregularities in the 'sweet spots' for the various bead draws were taken out. I'd detail it more, but its hard to see without looking at a spreadsheet and charts.

 

[jpariury]

The problem with paper money tags is that they are rarely, if ever, transferrable. Gems require that all chapters use the same evaluate sheet, or at least agree to let them in, etc. I keep running into an issue with wanting to pay off people, but having only tag-money, instead of hard coin.

Something interesting that came to mind at the last Oregon event was when a bottle of wine went out as treasure. The bottle had an evaluate number on it. The intention was that the wine itself was the item, while the bottle was not. However, if I drank all that wine, I still have a bottle with an evaluation number on it... and weirdness ensues. (Not to mention the boondoggle that occurred when someone realized that an IG item was being placed in the fridge, an OOG space)

I know at one point people were planning to invade one of my ships, which would have been cool. Ihad warned my "men" and everything... I was kinda disappointed OOG when that did not occur.

I think overall, Barry, that the estates, ships, etc., are all intended to be the very "investment" idea that you are talking about. The problem of physrepping primarily has come in when we've had the ships and such available at events.

As for sweet spots.... I don't know. I've invested a hundred or two gold in the system, and had most of my ships blow up from red bead draws. I think my biggest issue was that I expected more IG information from the system than I got. Not to say that I did not enjoy and appreciate what I did get: access to assorted locations, a few rp benefits like not getting oblitt'ed once or twice, and the like. I suppose I expected more in the way of a paragraph or two of reported information from the ships. It would have made the bad luck and such feel more worthwhile. My other issue was the limitation of the number of ships, both in owning title to, and in being able to acquire them. Very often I was left with small ships, or not being allowed to run multiples of them.

I enjoy having the two I still have, but I wish I could use it more. I want my own fleet, dammit!

 

[Kauss]

To address a few questions as to how it was done.

You never draw at gamedays unless it was a draw that had to be put off due to plot being busy, only events get draws.

If you miss the event or NPC most of the event you dont get a draw, and that draw doesnt stack. The exception to this was made for PCs of staff/plot since they very rarely get to play.

Normaly you can only make draws if you are physicly at logistics, However if IG you give a letter of note to another PC they might be able to pick it up, you would need to speak with plot.

If you use the ship/caravan/estate IG for IG reasons you dont get a draw, but you get the effects of what you used it for.(aka if you are hunting down pirates with one of your ships, it doesnt get a draw, but if you kill the pirates and get their money you keep it.)

Now to barry, first off why am I not suprised that your focusing on the PVP part of caravans and ships. For the most part they are not attackable becouse they are asset tags, and much like workshops and the like are more or less immune to attack. If plot allows, planning to attack one should grant a red bead to the pull (danger bead). However if you really wanted IG to go the effort, then you should be expected to do all the legwork IG. To question people, hunt down locations, walk to said locations. After requesting the mod the PC would be required to get NPCs to fill every role of the caravan. And if plot ever wants to do that they can.

In addition tho we do play a larp we have a lot of non phyreped aspects due to need. Plot cant rep the entire army at once, plot cant rep every townsperson. Plot has never had to build a dock or a physical dungen for the game. If plot had the money to do all this, great. But at this time, economics are dealt with much the same way as asset tags are and are in place for some non combat fun. They dont actally make a lot of money (ask JP) and they do bring a lot of coin back to plot (If used)

BTW "Connecting the investment of money to IG stuff happening is just more interesting than pulling beads. IMO. "
Actally often there are some plot links from economics to IG matters. Its more rumors and information carryed back, as well as requests and the like. However some people have fun sitting down and planing out what they will add to their caravans, if they need more guards or bribes, if there is a location that will award a blue bead or a red bead, ect. It may not be fun for you, but then this game isnt just for your. It is for you, and me, and jim, and whoever and we all have diffrent ideas of fun.

 

[Balryn]

I think overall, Barry, that the estates, ships, etc., are all intended to be the very "investment" idea that you are talking about. The problem of physrepping primarily has come in when we've had the ships and such available at events.

In a way they are, but I think these rules sorta focus on the mechanics of something rather than the roleplay they could entail. Moving money around outside of the live environment of the game creates a place where something like 90% of the people don't have a chance to interact with it.

I'd really like to focus on better RP ideas or investment options that lead to IG LIVE roleplaying. The key is *LIVE* RP. The more focus that occurs on ANYTHING occuring NON-LIVE, the less effort spent on LIVE happening.
A PC should never really have to request a mod to take action against another player. By creating rules that have OOG locations, the system puts a huge demand on plot/monster camp/the players.

Now if a system was implemented that kept it all ingame, the players would be self-administered and plot/monster camp would never have to worry about phys repping or trying to provide NPCs (this is indeed a very basic error that has caused many Plot teams and Monster Camps to became absolutely stressed from a materials standpoint, it may provide a solution, but it also provides problems too.)

As JP sorta found out, the metrics involved in this system are not really balanced with the RP side of it. If left alone to the metrics of economy in the packet, you don't get what you paid for. That's the biggest flaw in the packet.

I'd much rather see some RP happen that encourages players to cycle money to other players, rather than players cycling money to plot. The system should be self-contained process, rather than linear in economics.
There are many methods of creating a self-contained process that the players don't horde money. Creating rules to correct a plot methodology problem isn't fixing the base problem (and I'm hoping the new crew of plot tries some different mixes and discovers what I'm talking about).

Rewarding a person with a lot of gold, with slightly more gold is pretty pointless. Rewarding a person with a lot of gold, with some awesome RP would get me to dump hundreds of coin back into the market. (and I'm sure other experienced players like JP and Brian would say good RP is priceless)

And Phil, I never said that this game was just for me. I've always been a fond supporter of variety. I am saying though, that these rules aren't very supportive of a LIVE environment.

 

[Kauss]

Rewarding a person with a lot of gold, with slightly more gold is pretty pointless. Rewarding a person with a lot of gold, with some awesome RP would get me to dump hundreds of coin back into the market. (and I'm sure other experienced players like JP and Brian would say good RP is priceless)

And Phil, I never said that this game was just for me. I've always been a fond supporter of variety. I am saying though, that these rules aren't very supportive of a LIVE environment.

I dont know about JP, but I know that I have gotten a lot more RP out of my caravan than money (Its not a money sink, but its not a big earner either). Just having a caravan makes storys and plot links and hooks, it lends itself to RP (I know JP has used just having ships to tell storys and provide travel and ect.)

Yes, these rules are not live, but then very few people want to RP loading caravans, or walking 20 miles (physreping it). There are parts of the game that we do live, and there are parts we dont.

 

[jpariury]

I believe that when the system became first implemented, it was pretty damn cool. Plot gave all sorts of stories and descriptions of what happened, I was getting regular reports back from the ships, etc. However, the long term support of the system became far less cool as time went on. Near the end of much of the fleet I had running around, I would do a crappy bead draw and get told "Um, so you hear nothing back from this one. Just wait IG.", and then never saw anything in the game. Or, I would be told that such-and-such ship got beat to snot, but no event-time RP with people that escaped, witnessed it, etc. That was where it started falling short. (Admittedly, maybe I just missed it, or people kept it from me in one fashion or another. The end experience, though, is the same.)

I disagree, Barry, that the system places any more of a burden on Plot staff than any number of other OOG areas that they use. The assorted estates, the shartha clan camp, the gypsy tribes, etc., all of these are places that can be raided and visited by going to plot. Now, whether or not that is an efficient way to run plot overall is debatable, but really secondary to the discussion of whether or not the economics packet is useful, enjoyable, and balanced.

I do agree with Marc D's general philosophy that if you let players have something, they will want to use it at an event. My suggestion to avoid that is to state well in advance that it will not be allowed, so that people that use the system know it going in. Beyond that, I find the system useful because it broadens the character concepts that are playable in a supportable fashion. Joe Bob coming in can claim to be a poor merchant or a rich merchant, and there is nothing in place to support either concept. The economics package provides a specific measurable method of establishing what a character has accomplished. But the RP engendered by it needs to consistently make the system worthwhile.

 

[Kauss]

I believe that when the system became first implemented, it was pretty damn cool. Plot gave all sorts of stories and descriptions of what happened, I was getting regular reports back from the ships, etc. However, the long term support of the system became far less cool as time went on. Near the end of much of the fleet I had running around, I would do a crappy bead draw and get told "Um, so you hear nothing back from this one. Just wait IG.", and then never saw anything in the game. Or, I would be told that such-and-such ship got beat to snot, but no event-time RP with people that escaped, witnessed it, etc. That was where it started falling short. (Admittedly, maybe I just missed it, or people kept it from me in one fashion or another. The end experience, though, is the same.)

I have to agree that sometimes I got more RP than others. However, I think that was more due to the beta nature of the system than an inharent problem. Basicly anyone could do the draw supervising, but only certion people understood what X or Y ment in RP terms (why a blue was good, red bad that kinds thing). The easy way to fix that is just to have someone jot down on a card (like the monster encounter cards) what X and Y are supposed to mean then any plot person can do it or... have the same plot person do all the bead pulls so they can give a unified feel.

But overall I found it much more + than -

 

[Egor]

I would like to point out that 20 gold = 2000pp but it only says that the Xecbec costs 200pp and costs 20 gold.

 

[jpariury]

Good point. Probably a typo. Jim?

BTW, Jim, if there are players that currently have estates or art, and you can scrounge up or cludge up a copy of those packets, I'd be happy to include them so that we have it all in writing before we go changing or enforcing it, even if its just for the October event.

 

[Kauss]

Good point. Probably a typo. Jim?

BTW, Jim, if there are players that currently have estates or art, and you can scrounge up or cludge up a copy of those packets, I'd be happy to include them so that we have it all in writing before we go changing or enforcing it, even if its just for the October event.

I think I may have the only estate and I am not going to be at the event so its not such a rush. And estates are mostly a money sink, I dont even recall if I can get a draw on mine yet (Not much on it since the land cost me a bit.) I think..jacob may have a copy of them all, I will see. (He was number crunching them at one time.)