European larps LOOK cool, but would they work for us?

G

GunFodder

Newbie
I would like to start a discussion about the differences between European and American larps. Having only played the latter, I would greatly appreciate the input of anyone with experience in Euro larps, or even just thoughts, theories, or opinions.

Here's the basic run-down: European medieval fantasy larps looks impressive as heck, full of high quality props, costumes, armor, weapons, special effects, buildings, and locations. That is, the big, once-a-year games do. But even the average, individual players appear to have invested quite a bit more into the character's costume/armor/weapons than what I commonly see, so what gives?

I'm hoping that someone with experience in Euro larps (cough-cough-Ogunshi-cough) will chime in. I'm always seeing videos of more "theatrical" combat. Are all of these choreographed, or do they represent a different mind-set towards fighting? In big games such as Drachenfest or Conquest of Mythodea, what are the player death systems like? Is it like Darkon, where no one permanently dies? Or is it just far more difficult to die, requiring conditions to be met OTHER than just losing hit points?

Actually, I'd like to explore that concept some more. A lack of perma-death would explain why players would invest the time and money to outfit their characters so well. After all, if there's never any threat of your character perm'ing, you gain the luxury of taking all the time in the world to build the character you ultimately want to represent. Would an Alliance-style game ever accept a system like this? Let's take a look at the pro's and con's of a permanent death system:

Pro's
(1) Greater risk means greater reward. By feeling that our character, and ultimately ourselves, have something to lose, it increases the value of what we gain for taking risks and making sacrifices. Not just in terms of loot or gold, but how we regard other characters' value as people.

(2) Risk of loss and death is exciting! I've never had so much fun as when my chapter owner set up an encampment of diabolical creatures, who had taken the body of my recently-perm'ed friend (They had tortured him and another to death, he was Obliterated), and gave me the the no-win scenario of sneaking in with no spell book, no armor, and only a short sword to recover his remains. I low-crawled and snuck about for hours.... well, that's because I actually got lost in the dark. The point is, I didn't get the body, but I managed to survive after being discovered and chased down with more death spells than you can imagine, and then hiding under a rough camo-cover I had on me. I was SCARED. My character's life MEANT something to me, and that rush of adrenaline wouldn't be the same if it just meant resurrecting without risk of perm'ing.

(3) Player deaths keep the Average Player Level (APL) down. As the APL continues to climb, so does the damage curve, and the disparity between starting characters and established ones. The math gets worse, newbies may have more trouble integrating into the existing game, and things can start to get down right silly.

Con's
(1) With death always around the corner, a player might be hesitant to invest the time and money into their character. Sure, I'd love to order that awesome brigadine armor, or custom make a latex sword with my family's crest built into the crossguard, but what if that character dies next month? What, does my next character just happen to use the same $100 cuirass that I bought off of ebay?

(2) This game is about being all you can't be, right? But when the charcater that you loved so much dies, where do you typically go? WARNING! I'm about to make a GROSS over-generalization about players here, but based on my own personal experiences. Here's the typical order of character types that I see players make, after each of their characters perm:

Player Bob's 1st character: Pretty much "Bob", but braver. He tries to get involved, plays the hero, and is generally a decent guy.
Player Bob's 2nd character: Bob makes a "wacky" character, maybe a Scavenger or combat-happy Orc, who adopts a care-free and frivolous life full of fighting and/or merry-making. Often has a funny or squeeky voice.
Player Bob's 3rd character: Bob is now gruffer, perhaps meaner, maybe even evil. Probably human. He's seen it all, done it all (Even if he's 1st level), and typically doesn't bat an eyelash when a Liche walks into town.

In my own experiences, players tend to cycle through these characters simply because they don't want to play, or be thought of as playing, the same character "type" twice in a row. It's like we feel that we're required to change things up. Like I said, I'm painting with a very large brush here, but that's how it often seemed to me in the chapters I played.

I have some ideas for this, but this post is already too long. I know that I rambled a bit, but if anyone has any thoughts or suggestions regarding the above, or about the differences between Euro larps and ours, I'd love to hear them.

God, I need to get some sleep.

EDIT: Corrected some spelling errors. I'm sure there's plenty more.
 
Remember that all that medieval crap - the stuff that our LARPs use as a setting - is history for the UK. As such, there is a plethora of costuming, designs and even simply old hand me downs that fit into the genre at a much cheaper cost than over here. Imagine if wild west LARPs were big. There's no trouble here finding more authentic looking apparel but in the UK, it'd be harder to deal with.

I prefer playing in LARPs that are like the UK's when it comes to combat. Yes, characters can die much easier. But, as such, encounters are written to reflect this. If you went into a UK LARP with an Alliance mentality, you would die five times over - I've seen it happen in my games. However, I have been playing in UK styles for over a decade now and although there are deaths, it isn't as common as you'd think. When the next swing could mean your character's ultimate demise, you approach problems a totally different way. Next time you go into a major battle in the Alliance, imagine that your character currently has only white bead in the bag of chance waiting for him back at the rez circle and see how differently you approach the battle.

Usually, most people take the death of their character in one of these LARPs rather well. This is in part due to the fact that death is as much a part of the game as is everything else. It means that successes are more powerful so you get the higher highs as well as the lower lows. In addition, most players begin to develop an idea for their next character as they are playing their current one - as they begin to understand the game world better. When their first character dies, not only are they already prepared with the idea of their second character but they now know the mistakes and hurdles to avoid from the first one.

If the main issue with you losing your character is the time and money you've put into it, then I would suggest looking more into the sport of the game instead of the investment. It is fantastic to have a good costume and kit, along with other sundry props and building relationships along the way but it is just as fantastic to do that all again from a different angle.

And although that we here in the US use the word "Sue" more as a verb than a proper noun, in the UK they take personal responsibility more to heart than we do over here. If someone gets hit in the head over there it is usually due to either the target accidentially moving his head into path of the blow or not blocking correctly. Over here, it is ALWAYS the swinger's fault.
 
Presitilitigation, the bane of fun loving folks everywhere.

I've noticed that they let the European folks play around in actual castles. America has, to the best of my knowledge, a half dozen castles to go around for 330 million people, and half of those castles are imported.
 
Like the lovely Hammond Castle near me. It has a room with controllable indoor weather. John Hays Hammond, Jr. built his medieval-style castle between the years 1926 and 1929 to serve both as his home and as a backdrop for his collection of Roman, medieval, and Renaissance artifacts. In addition, the building housed the Hammond Research Corporation, from which Dr. Hammond produced over 400 patents and the ideas for over 800 inventions. Second only to Thomas Alva Edison in number of patents, John Hammond was one of America's premier inventors. His most important work was the development of remote control via radio waves, which earned him the title, "The Father of Remote Control."

postcrd_front_water_view.jpg

postcrd_front_towers.jpg

http://www.hammondcastle.org/common/ind ... A&page=A91

yeah the place rules. So does J. Hays Hammond, Jr.
 
Now you just have to convince them to let us come in and knock around with siege weapons and armored heavy infantry. : )
 
Hi together

I'm from germany and i saw this thread by searching for LARP at google
Please excuse me, if my english isn't very good :)
Although this thread is a bit older, but i really would like to give you some explanations about LARP in germany.

First of all: Yes we have many castles and old medieval buildings and so on, BUT only a few LARP-Conventions take place on a castle (mostly in the winter, when no one wants to sleep in a tent). Most of them are in a forest, or far away from any civilization.
For example, the "Drachenfest" takes place on an abandoned modern artillery base which is now owned by a local farmer (today it is only grasland with some streets).

Regarding the quality of the costumes, accessories, armory...: LARPers here are considered to present his character accurate and authentic and also to play the characters personality. I don't know anything about LARP in the USA but it seems that LARPers here in germany do play one single character very much longer than in the USA. I know Players playing the same Character 10 years or more and they have very high positions on some LARP-Conventions.

Death on german LARPs does normally not happen. on a LARP-Convention with PvE, the nonPlayers are instructed to die nice and to entertain the players, but they should not kill the players characters.
A character can die, but only if he is too stupid or he act like he really want to be killed. Sometimes a Character also dies if its Player deliberately breaks the rules.
If a Character dies, his death is permanent (except other characters ressurrect him with an extensice magic ritual)
On big LARP-Conventions like "Drachenfest" and "ConQuest of Mythodea" there is a respawn. For example, on the "Drachenfest" a dead character goes (as ghost) to the graveyard and there he meets the DEATH himself. The DEATH gives the character a little quest and shows him the way back to life. After the character is back to life he don't remember anything about being dead or how he dies, but he knows the quest he has to do.
So LARP here has a very strong role play part. Dying on a normal Convention is really not easy, but on "Drachenfest" you can die anytime anywhere.

Most of us here in germany think that LARP in the USA is more like an RPG-Videogame taken to the real world. It seems to be much more as a sport instead of role play. (maybe I'm wrong with that)

Like you already said there is the "Drachenfest" and "ConQuest of Mythodea".
They are the biggest LARP-Conventions in europe (maybe worldwide).
I already participate on "Drachenfest"-Conventions for three times and it's awesome :)
Some facts about the "Drachenfest":
  • Number of participants: ~7000 ("ConQuest of Mythodea" has ~9000)
  • Duration: 6-7 days
  • Takes place: every year in the last week of july ("ConQuest of Mythodea" is one week later, so if you want you can have 2 weeks full of LARP. There is a 3rd Convention named "Epic Empire" another week later. So for extreme LARPers they could do 3 weeks of LARP)
  • Setting: medieval-fantasy
  • Story-Background: The "Drachenfest" storyline takes place in a world named "the dragonlands", where several dragons, which are the gods of this world, could not agree on which of them are their leader. During the "Drachenfest" the dragons are represented by avatars in human form. Because the first dragonlands where destroyed by their creators, they don't want it to be happen with their new one (the second dragonlands) again. The dragons decide that instead of directly fighting against each other, the humans should fight for them in a competition to decide which dragon is the leader for the following year. So every year thousands from all worlds and all times hear the call of the dragons to honor them and fight for them. Each character chooses his personal favorite dragon and tries to bring him the victory.
  • Rules: The "Drachenfest" has its own rules but mostly it's DKWDDK ("Du kannst was du darstellen kannst" -> "You can do what you can perform")
  • Description: Because the characters are fighting for their chosen dragon this LARP-Convention is a bit special. Normaly on a LARP-Convention here in germany you have Players vs NonPlayers (PvE). On the "Drachenfest" it is Player vs Player (PvP). There are only a few NonPlayerCharacters to trigger some questlines or they are GuidedPlayers with defined roles. During the event there are camps (one for each dragon) and a town (including a intime marketstreet for LARP-items). Each camp has a banner and only if a camp has its own one he can earn points (dragoneggs) for the victory. The Players are not required to be warriors to conquer the banners of other camps (to get bonus points). There are thousands of quests in hundreds of different styles, so that everyone can participate on the competition in its own way.
Ok maybe this is enough about the "Drachenfest" :)

I hope this is not too much and not too boring to read :)
 
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What I'm hearing is that I want to go to Germany for about a week.
 
One week? You mean three. :p
 
Samyania said:
Get on that, then. (What's German for "#gainz?")
Click to expand...

Ima find out and tell you the next time you're "dying" at 24 Hour Fitness.
 
But working out is fun... but that's the trainer talking. Haha
 
Is it true, that american LARPs have a huge focus on fighting and that there are only a few events, where things like trading, diplomacy, spying, solving mysteries, playing nobles or servants take place?

For example, a small Conventionseries i participate was very combat focused (for european LARPs). It began on Thursday evening and goes till Sunday morning.
On Friday and Saturday i fought maybe 4 times per day and every fight takes maybe 20-40 minutes. We always fought against the NPCs. Because the event backgroundstory says that our camp was within enemy territory we stayed battleready all the time.
Beside of that we had many other things to do. One of our guardsmen was cursed and tries to run away into the forest. We had to keep an eye on him and to find a cure. After some time people from other groups became cursed too. To find the ingredients for the cure we needed to go into the forest ourself, but no one wants to go cause he don't want to be ambushed or get cursed too.
The enemy also tries to distract the Players by sending townsmen, traders and negotiators to us.
In addition to that, the some players character did not agree with the plans of the commander.
The whole weekend was full of intrigue between the nobles, threats from many sides and of course fighting too. :)
Also on players side there was a group of mercenaries which wants to be payed to help the others against the enemy. After the first day one of the nobles payed them for fighting against the forces of other nobles. The mercenaries switched the sides multiple times during the event, depending on who pays the most.

The rules for this event where DKWDDK ("Du kannst was du darstellen kannst" -> "You can do what you can peform) which basically means that you should do good performances and then the reacting person honors your effort by trying to react with the same effort (this also works for magic performances). There are no experience points or leveling for the characters.

How are LARPs in USA?
I found this video
Is it a representive fighting which is shown there?
How long are your LARP-events? Multiple days or only a few hours?
Do you play longterm stories spreading over multiple events or has every event his own story?
 
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I have attended Drachenfest and Conquest of Mythodea in 2015. As they are back to back weekends, you can attend Drachenfest, spend 3 days sight seeing in Germay and then attend Conquest of Mythodea. It's not as hard as you'd think.

I thought I had reviewed the games somewhere but I can't seem to find it - may have to rewrite them. I'll post a link up here once I find them. The long and short of it? Imagine SCA's Pennsic War but with boffers and more RPing between people
 
Goli said:
I found this video
Is it a representive fighting which is shown there?
Click to expand...
Given that that video is from the Alliance Southern Minnesota September 2016 event (fun fact: I'm the loud guy throwing the Flame Bolts!), I would say that our combat is representative exactly like what is shown there. :) Of course, the method of how combat works varies from LARP to LARP across the US, but that video is a pretty good example of the way combat works in Alliance.
 
The thing to remember about games like Alliance is that it's "High Fantasy" based. Where you can be fighting anything from a lowly kobold or goblin to, I believe I heard them say "Three headed Wyvern" in the video. So a system had to be developed where you are able to eventually be able to fight creatures in such a range of strength and abilities. That's the reason for the various numbers being called. The higher the number, the more powerful the creature or PC fighting. In the very few games I've played in Europe, I have only fought humanoids (elves, humans, dwarves, orcs, zombies, etc.) or encountered beings that were so powerful they could not be struck down (maybe destroyed via rituals and so on but not via combat). With that type of story, it is easier to have a system that doesn't even require the shouting of numbers and can have a more 'realistic feel' to it because everyone is basically the same power level.

And although the more well known games (such as Alliance) is known for a focus on combat conflict resolutions, there are also other issues that are presented by the staff that can be resolved in other matters. When I tend the events, I rarely go on combat missions and when I do, I often avoid the combat and find other things to do instead. I've done things from simply talking and paying Umberhulks into heading somewhere else instead of going into the city and eating people to playing a game of cards for a rabbit's leg instead of just killing the person who had it to carefully walking past a bunch of stone statues to steal the treasure chest instead of fighting the stone guardians. Basically, if you let the chapter owners know what you would like in the game, they will often look at trying to put it in, with the full understanding that there are many players looking for things that they would like to do in game.

But a lot of people do enjoy the combat aspect of the game. As with my last example, although I had taken everything of value from the room of the stone guardians, the other characters decided to go forward and attack them anyways, even though there was nothing to gain from it.

As for DKWDDK, the trademarked phrase for Alliance is basically the opposite: "Be all that you CAN'T be!" So the game is made to help people become things that they normally cannot be. Say you want to be a fighter but aren't really good at fighting. Although you can train to get better with experience, you can also raise your skills so that it will only take you 5 hits to take down a target with 40 points whereas it would take someone of lower level 10 hits to do it. But if that other person is a better fighter, he could take down the target in the same amount of time - thereby making the lesser out of game skilled individual as good as a fighter as the one who is more out of game skilled. And a mages are only as dangerous as their aim with their spell packets.

The games can be a single day to a weekend to four or five day events. Normally, it is a weekend event that takes place every 4-6 weeks and each chapter has a continuing storyline. So what you do on one weekend should have an impact and consequences that will be seen at the next event. Each chapter has their own stories but can also have some stories that go from chapter to chapter. This is something that makes Alliance special among most other games. You can take your character from chapter to chapter, experience different events and societies within the world. It's a way to actually live and build your character's background instead of just writing it down on a piece of paper.
 
@Gandian Ravenscroft and @markusdark: thank you very much. I think that gives me a quite good overview about american LARP (much better than only watching Youtube videos :) )

Regarding DKWDDK: @markusdark It doesn't mean that you are only able to perform things which you are able to do in real life.
It's a bit tricky but we have 2 rulesets (which are both without points) and they have nearly the same name :)

DKWDK: means "Du kannst was du kannst." (eng. "You can do what you are able to do.") and this is ends up in a very realistic gameplay (mostly without magic and very low fantasy).
DKWDDK: means "Du kannst was du darstellen kannst." (eng. You can do what you are able to perform.") and in this case you can play everything what you want as long as other players recognize what and who you are and what you are able to do without "telling" them. So if you want to play a 5m Dragon, you can do that.
@markusdark have you seen the chaos wyrm on the "Drachenfest" in 2015 or the raptor from the syrakids in the golden camp 2016?
 
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