How do wars work in the Alliance world?

F

FrankManic

Apprentice
Say the fighting 179th Dwarven Rhino Riders are encircled on all sides by slavering, bloodthirsty Unseemly Troll Haberdashers. The Rhino Riders are doomed, there is no hope that any of them will survive the battle! They fight bravely, to the last Dwarf and Rhino, then an hour later, having rezzed, re-armed, and taken a quick cat nap, they're ready to go charging back into the flank of the vicious Haberdashers.

How does that change the way things work in the world? I imagine that in wartime controlling access to magic circles would be as important, if not more so, than controlling water and high ground. A castle under siege could receive reinforcements from dead spirits ressurecting within the castle. Capturing scouts alive and taking prisoners would be the only way to maintain any kind of stealth, since if the scouts were killed they could rez miles away and report back what they had seen. How would you execute deserters? Would executing prisoners be viewed as more humane than holding them? Would starving prisoners to death prevent them from rezzing and immediately returning to battle? How do you suppress a peasant revolt if the peasants can throw themselves under the hooves of your charger in waves, knowing that while they can take a few deaths, the expense of replacing plate armor, magic weapons, and expensive war horses is beyond all but the wealthiest individuals? Could you siege a castle by having a group of volunteers commit suicide, then be rezzed by a traitor within the castle walls? Are castles built to take that sort of thing into account?

A further thought: I've heard that in Pre-columbian South and Central America one of the primary goals of fighting in wars was to capture slaves, either for sacrifice or for other purposes. This supposedly influenced the design of weapons and the way they were used. Supposedly, weapons were designed to wound or incapacitate rather than expressly killing. The thought, then, is that if an enemy could be expected to rez fairly soon after being killed, would weapon design and combat philosophy revolve around crippling or wounding the enemy without killing him, in order to keep him from coming back to the field rapidly, fresh and ready to fight?
 
As it has been explained to me, wars work a lot like they do in the real world, simply because the rest of the populace does not have the cavalier attitude towards resurrection that adventurers do. Powerful healing magics aren't terribly common either. Statistically, most people get one or two before permanent death, since NPCs can't exactly buy them back with goblin stamps. ;)

I've always operated on the old D&D figures. A level five adventurer is already more powerful than most of the populace will ever be. As they increase in levels, the percentage of the populace that will ever survive to that level decreases exponentially, until people in the 20+ range are literally one in a million.
 
Back when we first broke away from International and started up the Alliance...we had, as part of the dramatic set up to the new world we were creating, wars occuring on numerous fronts for Ashbury. Our Plot Committee at the time, handled most of the wars Off Screen (i e not at events), with Barons chooses movments/actions much like a wargame and the Plot Committee rolling dice, etc. (computers then weren't quite what they are now) to determine outcome. We, of course, featured major battles and turning points in real time at key events.
 
Wraith said:
I've always operated on the old D&D figures. A level five adventurer is already more powerful than most of the populace will ever be. As they increase in levels, the percentage of the populace that will ever survive to that level decreases exponentially, until people in the 20+ range are literally one in a million.
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With the numbers of 20+ people now... and the fact that it is a reality that you can get a level 15+ character in just over a year I don't know if this way of thinking necessarily still makes sense...

Not to mention that many "regular" town guards will be more like 10th level, if they are a fighter anyways. With 4 profs and a full Evis set... Or a spellcaster for the army will have a 4 column. Just thoughts...

Oh also, from what I've seen, even adventures don't really have that cavalier an attitude about resurrecting. In general people start freaking out pretty bad even when just a few people get to that point.
 
I have to say, I'm surprised to hear that there are a lot of high level characters kicking around. I've played a few RPGs where a high level inversely correlates with your chances of surviving the next ten minutes.

And of course there is the ongoing quest for a truly ridiculous crowning moment of awesome followed by a messy death...

So I understand 'Spirit' determines if you can resurrect, and how many times you can get away with it. Is Spirit a sort of force of personality thing, and adventurers tend to get away with it more often because they've got a lot of bravado and whatnot? Do stone elves get away with it more often than, say, scavengers?

La la la. I find that one of the funnest things to do with a game setting is to find ways to bend it until it breaks, then explain those bends and breaks from within the context of the game in order to get a more consistent understanding of the world.
 
FrankManic said:
So I understand 'Spirit' determines if you can resurrect, and how many times you can get away with it. Is Spirit a sort of force of personality thing, and adventurers tend to get away with it more often because they've got a lot of bravado and whatnot? Do stone elves get away with it more often than, say, scavengers?
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Not at all. 'Spirit' is an in-game method of explaining the out-of-game logistics of resurrection without using the peskily religious term 'soul' to represent the immaterial aspects of a person. When one resurrects, it is thought to weaken the spirit, making it less likely that one will successfully come back the next time.
 
FrankManic said:
I have to say, I'm surprised to hear that there are a lot of high level characters kicking around. I've played a few RPGs where a high level inversely correlates with your chances of surviving the next ten minutes.
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Well, what has happened is that people invest years and hundreds of dollars into their characters to get them even moderately powerful. Hundreds of dollars not only attending events, but also in costume exe exe. And at least from what I've seen there are often only a handful (half a dozen or so) resurrections on any given weekend. It generally is considered a really harsh weekend if there are more than 10 or so resurrections. Thus with the numbers of people who play the game, the level creep is a real reality and the average APL of games in many (older) chapters by now is often in the mid to high teens. If not low 20's.

It can be quite intimidating for new people to jump into that setting. But if you know what you want/are doing you can usually find ways to have fun and stay alive. There are people who have played for 5 or 6 years and still have like only rez'ed once or not at all. In some ways the game has gone a bit soft from what the rulebook makes it sound like and from what I've heard it was back 10 years or so ago. A big reason for that is there is very little PvP except on some rare occasions. Not saying it doesn't exist, but it is not the norm.

Whether or not this is a good or bad thing is up for debate. There was a huge thread talking about level creep in the Rules forum a while back...
 
The wars in LARPs I have experienced were handled with the chapter being a 'strike force' of sorts - like a "Dirty Dozen" style where they are part of the war but they have their own niche where they need to get stuff done. For example, the main force of the army is doing an assault upon the main gates of the enemy but your job is to go and take out the Necromancer and his supply line of undead.

As for the resurrection thing - it is a good/bad thing IMO. It is nice that you don't have to worry about your character kicking it because of a mistake or foul up and you can spend more time really giving him more dimension but it also removes a huge amount of the fear of death that adds so much to games. I have known characters that were such high level that they had met all of the criteria to become Dragon Mages (at least to my knowledge) - just that no PC can become one.
 
Attrition in long sieges/battles would be much smaller in Alliance but resurection actually has very little effect on individual battles or skirmishes. It takes ten minutes to resurect someone who has died once they arrive at the circle. You can only resurect at once as many people as you have invested in the circle or can fit in the circle whichever is fewer. Since most circles are around 10 feet in diameter that really means while packing them in maybe 20 resses at a time. At ten minutes a batch thats about 120 in an hour. Then all of those troops need to be re-armed, mounted etc. then make thier way from the circle to the battle front.

It won't really happen in a single battle basically. However once the battle is lost you can res a chunk of your losses and set up for the next battle. So much less attrition.

Circles would however be important stratigic targets either for capture or destruction. Greater circles are rare and therefore woudl be high value targets. Similarly Healing magic reduces attrition due to injury meaning injured troops return to the field much quicker. Once again in a battle this is unlikely to make a huge differance but from battle to battle you con't count on depleteing the forces of an exporatory force you have to actually stop them form gaining circles to res at.

As for actual in-game Wars generally PC's approach it as mercenary special forces (sometimes less mercenary) and take out high value targets like maybe capture and hold a circle or cut off a supply train etc.
 
Angrydurf pritty mauch nailed it. A spirit still has to travel to the nearest friendly earth circle, and only those investing in the circle can begin the resurections. Even once passed off, your limited by the space. Large battles would take a few dyas to resurect all the dead from both sides, and then the time to re-equip them, assuming you have the suplies, then the time it takes to mobilize them back to the front.

If you look at IG newspaper publications about wars they always talk about the "numbers lost" then state the aproximate amount of permanant losses. The resurection cycle only slows the pace down, otherwise wars seem to function much as they did in the past. Adventurers toss a weird mix into wars, and will ofen make or break key battles. But given the number of adventurers in the world, versus the number of everyday people, even the trained military ones, it is unlikly that adventures could end up being the deciding factor unless they are in the right spot at the right time.

Scince we are the PC's, we get the fun of seeing those key "now or never moments". They are what make the game epic at times.
--bill
 
You know it never occurred to me to think about this before now, but given the fact that in a war someone may not be able to resurrect you for sometime after your death, is there a limit to how long a spirit can remain. Can you die and then wait to be resurrected for a year, or does the length of time increase the likelihood of a permanent death. I know this is not relevant for game purposes... but I would be curious how it works in the IG world.

Take for instance if somehow an army were to capture the only earth circle/s of an area and refuse to begin resurrections on any spirit that entered. If that circle was retaken months or years later would those spirits be resurrectable or would over that time frame permanently died? I would assume the longer it takes to res someone the more likely they would perm.
 
Angrydurf said:
You can only resurect at once as many people as you have invested in the circle or can fit in the circle whichever is fewer.
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This statement is untrue. If you have only one person invested in a circle, you can begin a theoretically-unlimited number of resurrections, they will simply be unguided. The number is limited only by how many physreps for spirits you can fit in the circle.

I've been to a couple of wars. BITD, there were "War weekends" where pretty much every one NPCed, playing either the local army or the op-for, and we had to take objectives, hold objectives, etc. Seattle did a pretty awesome one where the town represented the command center of the war efforts, and some characters directed the local militia via NPCs assigned as messengers and such, while the rest of the town held off the strike forces sent to take down the CC.
 
I don't believe that there are provisions in place for that to occur. In the situation that you put forth the spirits have an option of going to next closest friendly earth circle. Even if that circle is a years walk away over the river and throught the woods to their ritual casting grandmothers house. Even if they had to walk in spirit form for a year they still have the same chance of ressurecting as they did before.
 
Hammerfist said:
I don't believe that there are provisions in place for that to occur.
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ARB said:
You must be Invested in the Circle to be able to start the resurrection, but once it is begun, anyone with the skill of Healing Arts can complete it. If no one is available with Healing Arts, then the spirit can resurrect on its own once the Invested member has begun the resurrection. However, in-game, this is emotionally painful to the recipient.
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jpariury said:
Angrydurf said:
You can only resurect at once as many people as you have invested in the circle or can fit in the circle whichever is fewer.
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This statement is untrue. If you have only one person invested in a circle, you can begin a theoretically-unlimited number of resurrections, they will simply be unguided. The number is limited only by how many physreps for spirits you can fit in the circle.

I've been to a couple of wars. BITD, there were "War weekends" where pretty much every one NPCed, playing either the local army or the op-for, and we had to take objectives, hold objectives, etc. Seattle did a pretty awesome one where the town represented the command center of the war efforts, and some characters directed the local militia via NPCs assigned as messengers and such, while the rest of the town held off the strike forces sent to take down the CC.
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True but the end result is still basically the same. You can't generally ressurect 500-1000 dead at once. It'll take time for everyone to finish resurecting and for the forces to be rearmed etc. I also woudl say IG its unlikely that a militry is going to leave its fallen soldiers to resurect unguided in any but the most dire circumstances.
 
Angrydurf said:
True but the end result is still basically the same. You can't generally ressurect 500-1000 dead at once. It'll take time for everyone to finish resurecting and for the forces to be rearmed etc. I also woudl say IG its unlikely that a militry is going to leave its fallen soldiers to resurect unguided in any but the most dire circumstances.
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Right, I was just disagreeing with the one statement. :)
 
In another game I used to play, called Dragon Crest, your spirit had three days to make it to a "heartstone". If you died more than three days walking distance from a heartstone, you would perm.

--bill
 
jpariury said:
Hammerfist said:
I don't believe that there are provisions in place for that to occur.
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ARB said:
You must be Invested in the Circle to be able to start the resurrection, but once it is begun, anyone with the skill of Healing Arts can complete it. If no one is available with Healing Arts, then the spirit can resurrect on its own once the Invested member has begun the resurrection. However, in-game, this is emotionally painful to the recipient.
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You posted prior to me finishing.... I was responding to this

Take for instance if somehow an army were to capture the only earth circle/s of an area and refuse to begin resurrections on any spirit that entered. If that circle was retaken months or years later would those spirits be resurrectable or would over that time frame permanently died? I would assume the longer it takes to res someone the more likely they would perm.
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sorry about the confusion
 
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