How much change is too much change?

[Wraith]

There is one specific change that I feel has changed the whole dynamic of the entire game. This is giving fighters the extra half a prof for two handed weapons. Once upon a time the main goal for a fighter was to be able to swing an even 10, and the greatest fighters wanted to swing 10 with each hand. Now the main goal seems to be swinging 20. Some fighters are even able to swing much higher than 20 by streamlining their build. This type of damage output has created an entirely different game.

There has been a ripple effect based on fighter damage output. Monster cards have had their body raised significantly, and the amounts that they swing have also been raised to make them seem more menacing. The fighter has become much less like a tank, and much more like a glass cannon. While monster cards are being upped, the fighter still has the same body and armor points. Armor gets breached amazingly fast. Gone are the days of taking 5-10 hits and dropping back to refit. Now it seems that it only takes 1 or 2 hits to drop armor. Combat is getting increasingly faster as the fighter is trying to hit the monster card more time than they get hit due to their sense of vulnerability. Monsters are also coming out with more and more packet/spellstrike attacks to try and counter the fighter damage output.

The increase in fighter damage also effects other classes. Dragon's Breath used to be the ultimate spell, but now even throwing an elemental blast seems to pale in comparison to a fighter continuously swinging 20-40s all weekend long. As monster body raises it also lowers the effectiveness of damage spells. Throwing a flamebolt feels ineffective when monster cards have 100-200 body. Even a rogue feels less effective when their back attack is less than a fighter swings from the front. The increase in fighter output has really effected combat in Alliance.

Personally I miss the days where combats were more even between monsters and adventurers. It feels like combat has come down to damage per second. I miss being able to exchange blows on fairly even playing fields. When dropping out to refit armor was a valid tactic, and when a defensive fighter could parry and attack in a back and forth with a NPC and have it feel like a cinematic fight. I do not have fun playing a glass cannon, and I miss the fun that being a stick jock used to be.

Honestly, things like that are just icing on the cake to the overall powering-up of the game. It's gotten to the point where what I see reminds me of D&D games where the call of the day was "save or die"- either you had the defense or you were out of action, with very little in between.

IMHO, profs need to be less linear. Going from 0 to +4 should be easier than +5 to +8, +9 to +12 should be tougher still and so on. Constant damage is a literal big measuring beatstick for NPC lifespans. I'd rather warriors get more per-tag-cycle skills than the inevitable grind towards "I swing *bignumbers*". The more big numbers we stick in the game, the worse inflation devalues anything but the most potent method of generating them.

That just leads them into the same problem with have with every other effect in the game, though, where it becomes literally 'defense or die'. We already have issues because the number of one-shot takedowns in play is so high that anything meant to live more than a few seconds after it enters combat has to have a stack of dodges/cloaks/banes/immunities to do so. Adding more PTD skills without fundamentally changing what they do just means hearing the Eviscerate/Riposte/Riposte/Parry chain more often.

 

[Gilwing]

There is one specific change that I feel has changed the whole dynamic of the entire game. This is giving fighters the extra half a prof for two handed weapons. Once upon a time the main goal for a fighter was to be able to swing an even 10, and the greatest fighters wanted to swing 10 with each hand. Now the main goal seems to be swinging 20. Some fighters are even able to swing much higher than 20 by streamlining their build. This type of damage output has created an entirely different game.

There has been a ripple effect based on fighter damage output. Monster cards have had their body raised significantly, and the amounts that they swing have also been raised to make them seem more menacing. The fighter has become much less like a tank, and much more like a glass cannon. While monster cards are being upped, the fighter still has the same body and armor points. Armor gets breached amazingly fast. Gone are the days of taking 5-10 hits and dropping back to refit. Now it seems that it only takes 1 or 2 hits to drop armor. Combat is getting increasingly faster as the fighter is trying to hit the monster card more time than they get hit due to their sense of vulnerability. Monsters are also coming out with more and more packet/spellstrike attacks to try and counter the fighter damage output.

The increase in fighter damage also effects other classes. Dragon's Breath used to be the ultimate spell, but now even throwing an elemental blast seems to pale in comparison to a fighter continuously swinging 20-40s all weekend long. As monster body raises it also lowers the effectiveness of damage spells. Throwing a flamebolt feels ineffective when monster cards have 100-200 body. Even a rogue feels less effective when their back attack is less than a fighter swings from the front. The increase in fighter output has really effected combat in Alliance.

Personally I miss the days where combats were more even between monsters and adventurers. It feels like combat has come down to damage per second. I miss being able to exchange blows on fairly even playing fields. When dropping out to refit armor was a valid tactic, and when a defensive fighter could parry and attack in a back and forth with a NPC and have it feel like a cinematic fight. I do not have fun playing a glass cannon, and I miss the fun that being a stick jock used to be.

IMHO, profs need to be less linear. Going from 0 to +4 should be easier than +5 to +8, +9 to +12 should be tougher still and so on. Constant damage is a literal big measuring beatstick for NPC lifespans. I'd rather warriors get more per-tag-cycle skills than the inevitable grind towards "I swing *bignumbers*". The more big numbers we stick in the game, the worse inflation devalues anything but the most potent method of generating them.

But it is easier... you get 10 build with your first maxout. That's 3/4 of the way there. When I play it will hopefully take me 10 events to do that.

 

[Talen]

That just leads them into the same problem with have with every other effect in the game, though, where it becomes literally 'defense or die'. We already have issues because the number of one-shot takedowns in play is so high that anything meant to live more than a few seconds after it enters combat has to have a stack of dodges/cloaks/banes/immunities to do so. Adding more PTD skills without fundamentally changing what they do just means hearing the Eviscerate/Riposte/Riposte/Parry chain more often.

Oh, don't worry- I know that's a problem too- because there's a set cycle thanks to basic defenses being dumb and the big defenses being smart, and "defense or die" effects are often incredibly cheap compared to raw damage. That's a fundamental flaw in the rules that's gotten bigger over time, as more of them have been dropped into game and higher levels overall means they're more spammable.

And a single limb chopped/broken off or a disarm effect isn't usually a "takedown". A shatter might be, but none of those generally leave a target totally helpless. More of those in the food chain, less instant kill effects via megadamage or "I hit you, you are dead". And with less constant damage swinging, you can at least eventually wear down someone's pile-o-offensive-skills and not have them sit there compensating by beating someone to death with piles of double-digit pummeling.

Call a spade a spade. One-shot abilities are pretty much heinous and should be treated as such- whether they're asleep, barfing, enfeebled, or paralyzed- it's effectively "you're done" until the effect is removed. If it's lower-level/costs less, it needs to have significant downgrades- maybe a nausea gas only leaves you puking for a minute, rather than ten. Heck, cut anything but the most powerful totally disabling effects down- to 30 seconds, a minute, five minutes at most. I'd say "increase the cost", but frankly, most people could (and would) just blow the extra production to have their insta-cripple effects on hand anyway...because they're that good.

 

[Paladin of Chaos]

Just a quick reminder, since this thread is a few posts off the given topic: you can always start a new thread if you want to discuss something else, or find an existing thread to continue. There are plenty of threads about takeouts vs defensives.

Thanks!

PoC

 

[Toddo]

Too much change is when the Coinstar machine falls through the floor under the weight of my nickels.