How should letters be handled?

[Seattle_Jim]

This is a thread to discuss handwritten letters.

Should PCs handwrite everything they use in game?

Should using printed letters equate to using a scribe?

Should you have to pay that scribe?

Should plot be able to use that scribe as a way to gather information?

Should you be able to pay more for a more discreet scribe?

 

[Polare]

I can see both sides of the "handwritten" argument.

It is a valid concern that players type and print things out claiming they are "handwritten", yet are obviously not (and thus both too easy to forge and too difficult to compare forensically).

It is a valid concern that players with multiple characters will invariably end up with handwriting similarities between their characters.

Personally I find it an issue in the following way... I have written a few books/treaties in game. I pretty much CAN'T handwrite that much (never did hold a pen correctly; you'll never see me write more than a page or two at a time in my journal because my hand cramps up badly), but typing it is no problem at all. I would find it somewhat objectionable if the option of typing things were taken away from me. We don't demand that people hand-sew every item of clothing; we "pretend" that naugahide and vinyl are leather; etc. etc. etc.

But I have to admit that the world would be just that much more immersive if typed papers were disallowed.

So to me the question is this: Would the benefit of greater immersiveness outweigh the benefits of typed papers/letters?

It's kind of a tossup for me. I'd probably end up coming down on the typed papers side of things, esp. as I get more characters (and don't forget NPCs) which would end up with the same or very similar handwriting.

-Bryan

 

[Kauss]

This is a thread to discuss handwritten letters.

Should PCs handwrite everything they use in game?

Should using printed letters equate to using a scribe?

Should you have to pay that scribe?

Should plot be able to use that scribe as a way to gather information?

Should you be able to pay more for a more discreet scribe?

I will give my views.
1) No, becouse its a pain in the butt, and there is a lot of unimportant stuff that needs to be written. We are not 24/7 like our charicters and simply dont have the time.
2)Printed letters should be a scribe or a printing press of some sort.
3) If you use the scribe in downtime it should be just like other costs/payments in downtime. Aka IG you payed, but its covered by the money you gt during downtime but also spend.
4) Yes, if you use a scribe, then the scribe should remeber you. If you want to be safer, get a buyable scribe, or better yet, one from a nearby town.
5) yes and no, during gameplay sure, but I would prefer needing to find a buyable scribe is more important. RPing getting the right contacts and such.

 

[Seattle_Jim]

(and don't forget NPCs)
-Bryan

Yes, plot uses typed letters for that reason, not soley, it is easier as well, but I can assign fonts to individual npcs that are much more different than if I just tried to change my slant or the way I dot my is and js.

 

[Balryn]

Should PCs handwrite everything they use in game?

I fine with this... however it wouldn't make any sense for multi-character players and wouldn't solve anything except for the fact that I can ID Jim/Barry/Bryan's handwriting.

Should using printed letters equate to using a scribe?

Why would it equate to using a scribe? You have read/write. Scribes have read/write. Why would it look any different? If anything a scribe (an NPC) should hand write everything for a PC too. I'm against saying NPCs can use computers... but PCs can't. There is no reason that a PC wouldn't have access to any regular writing instrument a normal scribe would. I mean really, how many scholars and mages do we have in our group...

Should you have to pay that scribe?

Sure... scribes should be paid for their work. But the primary reason you have a scribe is like a secretary. They take notes and make extra copies of things. Normally an educated person would just grab a pen and write.

Should plot be able to use that scribe as a way to gather information?

Well it would be a character... so if someone without read and write wanted to use a scribe you could. But then I would argue that a scribe is identifyable as a scribe and that they have to always write using the same manner and type.

Should you be able to pay more for a more discreet scribe?

I don't think discreet scribes would exist in NERO. Unlike medieval worlds when even some nobility couldn't write, a good chunk (like 80% or more) of player characters know how to read / write. It wouldn't make sense for them to hire someone to write something when they are perfectly capable of grabbing a different quill and writing a letter.

 

[Kauss]

Should you be able to pay more for a more discreet scribe?

I don't think discreet scribes would exist in NERO. Unlike medieval worlds when even some nobility couldn't write, a good chunk (like 80% or more) of player characters know how to read / write. It wouldn't make sense for them to hire someone to write something when they are perfectly capable of grabbing a different quill and writing a letter.

Um I can think of a number or reasons. IRL I can read and write, and i read quite well, but my handwritting is quite bad. If I want something to look good, I have someone like my wife write it for me. Kauss learned read/write IG (after charicter gen) and not oddly his writting is as bad as mine. If I want a sign written, I have someone else do it. (I used to have rissa do it with caligraphy, but she doesnt play anymore.)

 

[Johnathan Lancaster]

Conversely, how would people feel if I offered a service to make a font from a sample of their handwriting? This would be made completely separate from my role as staff artist, and your personal font woould not be released to plot/other characters without your authorization.

The burden would then fall on each of your shoudlers to make sure that other players (those of you whos homes gain more traffic than a NY city street) do not compromise your personal font for their own forgefulness.

The problem with this, though, is that me doing one font for every character would be alot of time out of my day. Compensation would have to be in order...

 

[most_precious_blood]

Questions

"Should PCs handwrite everything they use in game?"
No, there is nothing that says movable type is out of period or off limits for this game. It is a fantasy setting, after all.


"Should using printed letters equate to using a scribe?"
Using printed letters should equate using a machine/press of some kind.
Human-based scribing should be done by hand, even if you're the scribe being paid. Unless you are a scribe with a printing press, that is.


"Should you have to pay that scribe?"
When at events, yes. During downtime, no.
Your downtime costs are covered by downtime revenue.


"Should plot be able to use that scribe as a way to gather information?"
If they track down the scribe, sure. It is a character in your world.


"Should you be able to pay more for a more discreet scribe?"
Why are you even asking this question? That comes down to the character (scribe's) motivations. If I am a scribe motivated by greed, I will take your hush-money, then sell you out for more money. In theory, yes, you should be able to pay more for discretion... but ultimately you may not get what you pay for.


-Gid
I.R.G.Y.F.

 

[jpariury]

Link for context of discussion

(My opinion, just to clarify)

Use of computer-printed material should be cleared through plot on a case-by-case basis. Generally speaking, anything that is not "organic" should be cleared through plot. For instance, actually setting up a tent in the woods somewhere remote, but within the bounds of being "on-site", shouldn't need to go through plot, while claiming to having a tent hidden off in the trees, in fact, should.

The primary difference is whether or not a player can reasonably use the "Live" physreps to try and trace something down without the intervention of plot, whether its a piece of writing, a tent in the woods, or a hidden compartment in a cabin.

If it is possible, within the bounds and context of the game environment, to trace it down, then it should be allowed. If, on the other hand, it relies on resources that are not traceable on-site without the intervention of plot (ie, scribes, printing presses, privateering ships, etc.), then it should be cleared through plot so that they can appropriately address questions that will inevitably come from the PCs.

Having covered the basic philosophy, here are my direct answers.
Should PCs handwrite everything they use in game?
If they do not want to clear it through plot, yes.

Should using printed letters equate to using a scribe?
Printed letters (computer-generated, typewritten, etc.) should equate to having been generated by a plot-resource, whether that is a scribe, a printing press, etc.

Should you have to pay that scribe?
For generic activity that you expect no particular secrecy with, no (i.e. public contracts).

Should plot be able to use that scribe as a way to gather information?
Yes.

Should you be able to pay more for a more discreet scribe?
It depends on how you obtain the retainer. For instance, people who use the Economy packet pay a flat fee at the outset. For that fee, it is presumed that by and large, the crew, house servants, or caravan flunkies are loyal to you. However, there are specific mechanics that allow for being betrayed (the mutiny bead, in Ships, for example), and, as always, Plot holds sway over your Ships.

Similarly, using pre-printed material and the secrecy thereof depends entirely on the source. If you are a "pay-per-use" kind of contractor (and expend no game coin), then you get a guy who prints stuff out for you. If you want to pay for secrecy, it should cost actual game coin (rather than virtual between event coin), and ultimately, is governed by your IG relationship with the NPC. OTOH, if you spend some chunk of money for a printing press and staff, or otherwise obtain a tag for such, then you become more visible in having the means (IE, you get an asset tag from Plot), but generally speaking, the staff that administers it should be loyal to you (whether that is a typesetter, or the guy you buy your ink from), for the most part (again, with Plot having final say on events that can or might occur).

 

[most_precious_blood]

If a PC has a printing press, and knows how to operate it, they shouldn't need to clear it through plot if they have tags for materials. They have the means to generate a message without handwriting anything.

Just because you have a press doesn't mean that your letter untraceable, either. Block letters are hand cut, and each letter leaves its own fingerprint on the finished document.

Presses are probably both very rare and spendy though... it would be easier and faster for someone wishing to discretely make a single-page document to just hire a scribe and introduce a knife to his or her lung when you're finished. Juice them, and TADA! just like the old days...

I don't think that falls under "Jackassery", but I could be wrong.

-Gid

 

[jpariury]

If a PC has a printing press, and knows how to operate it, they shouldn't need to clear it through plot if they have tags for materials. They have the means to generate a message without handwriting anything.

I would disagree. As I'd briefly mentioned earlier, printing presses still require some manner of upkeep, whether that is in the form of direct use, or obtaining supplies to utilize it (paper, ink, new letter blocks, etc.). Much like using a ship to travel from point A to point B requires saying "Hey plot, I'm using my ship to go from A to B during downtime.", using a printing press also should require saying "Hey, plot, I'm gonna create some contracts this weekend". Sure, I have tags for my ships, but how those ships interact with the world is governed by plot.

Just because you have a press doesn't mean that your letter untraceable, either. Block letters are hand cut, and each letter leaves its own fingerprint on the finished document.

Another reason for going through plot when bringing in computer/typewriter generated docs.

Presses are probably both very rare and spendy though... it would be easier and faster for someone wishing to discretely make a single-page document to just hire a scribe and introduce a knife to his or her lung when you're finished. Juice them, and TADA! just like the old days...

Then you end up with a dead body, and yet further reason to go through plot. Sounds like a cool idea for a mini-storyline, actually.

 

[most_precious_blood]

A clarification

You would need to turn in tags for the items you used, just like a slay or a flame bolt.

Ink, etc... all of those tags could very easily have an expiration date.

I believe I misinterpreted what you meant by "Cleared through plot"

I don't think plot has any say at that point...
If they were willing to give out those tags in the first place, they know you have it, and could use it.

I don't need their permission, they are already aware of what I can do.

Perhaps all mass-print (or computer printed) documents should be required to have a "press id number" so that plot can trace the document back to the press if they are in the dark about who printed it...

No number would be the same as no tag.

No dice.

Then again, you could just make it another case of "haves and have-nots", (much like all of the abilities or alchemy worth having in this game.) and simply force PCs to go through plot channels if they ever want something scribed or printed.

There is a point realism is sacrificed for play balance... I just don't have to like it.

Regards,
-Gid
I.R.G.Y.F.

P.S. still trying to undo my message board aggro from the AU board, sorry if I get a little bitchy.

 

[jpariury]

You would need to turn in tags for the items you used, just like a slay or a flame bolt.

Ink, etc... all of those tags could very easily have an expiration date.

I believe I misinterpreted what you meant by "Cleared through plot"

Yeah. I'm not suggesting expendable for ink, nor am I necessarily suggesting that plot will say "No, you may not bring in a computer-generated document simply because we say so". I'm suggesting that if you are running a printing press, then you have contact with people who sell you the materials that you use. Those people then have the possibility of finding out the wrong thing at the wrong time, and betraying you. Those people, naturally, are NPCs controlled by plot. Therefore, if you plan to bring in manufactured documents, plot should be made aware of it, to do with as they will. Now, because we trust plot (why play the game if you don't, right?), there should be no worries about getting "plot-screwed". On the converse, maybe you want to try your latest scheme, and your preferred contact for ink has died. Instant hook into a new storyline!

P.S. still trying to undo my message board aggro from the AU board, sorry if I get a little bitchy.

No worries.

 

[Balryn]

Well I would have to really go against that viewpoint... that for some reason people think running a press of some sort requires supplies to be provided. Creating a printed letter goes all the way back from stamping and runeform, which includes chiseling letters in stone, wax, bone and wood. Ink is usually a simple berry mixed with ore, as were most clothing and paper dyes. There isn't any reason that it would be trackable to a PC anymore that handwriting. More to the point, I have yet to see anyone ingame whose handwriting is really that recognizable by the untrained investigator... so the point is really moot. If PCs want to write a letter using a pen they can hide it just as easily as using a computer.

If we don't want computerized typing in game, then disallow it across the entire game. By requiring it to be "plot related" by being computer printed means that it would be handled differently by everyone IG, whether or not plot made it.

The next one I'm expecting to hear is that all IG paper has to be purchased through plot because you have to hire someone to make it. We are playing a fantasy game and there many aspects of it that do not mesh with historical points regarding processes. The minute you start looking to have anachronism police against certain pieces of the game you open the whole thing up into debate on an unlimited number of points.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry, but it took a lot of training back then to run a printing press. They were very very rare. And you had to print a lot to make a profit. So you didn't have time to make your paper or buy your ink. Other people made it for you.
Frankly, I agree they should be asset tags. This makes them a bit more valuable and opens you up to even MORE plot, and cool plot too cause you have a printing press so people are going to come to you to use it!

While I agree that this is a fantasy game, the rulebook itself does try to push the idea of avoiding anachronistic play, including phrases like "holy cow dude." Some of them you'll never get away from, like tennis shoes. Some of them, however, you can make nifty plot for and thereby enrich the fantasy world.

Yay for plot!

~Sarah

 

[jpariury]

By requiring it to be "plot related" by being computer printed means that it would be handled differently by everyone IG, whether or not plot made it.

How is that any different than now? Your words to me in the cabin were (paraphrased) "Players assume that preprinted riddles always come from plot".

 

[Balryn]

How is that any different than now? Your words to me in the cabin were (paraphrased) "Players assume that preprinted riddles always come from plot".

You and I both agreed on this, but took different aspects away from it. The problem with making them literally come only from plot means that every time we see a printed letter it would be from plot. I don't want to see "plot only" methods of writing which don't make much sense.

Smart players do not assume it comes from plot. Our conversation covered that. Less experienced players assumed it was from plot, but a slew of experienced ones didn't jump straight to that conclusion. Perhaps less will now that they've seen it doesn't always come from plot in first person. They will assume that someone wrote something on a sheet of paper. How it was made OOG should not indicate who it came from IG.

If people want to have printing presses be an asset... fine with me. I'll buy two. But in all honesty, most printing of the time back then wasn't a "press". It was a tablet print either chiselled in stone or carved in a soft material and stamped onto paper.


~B

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think it was necessarily less experienced players assuming it was from plot. I think there were some very good in game reasons why certain players would, at least as first, assume it was from plot.

~Sarah

 

[Kauss]

You and I both agreed on this, but took different aspects away from it. The problem with making them literally come only from plot means that every time we see a printed letter it would be from plot. I don't want to see "plot only" methods of writing which don't make much sense.

Smart players do not assume it comes from plot. Our conversation covered that. Less experienced players assumed it was from plot, but a slew of experienced ones didn't jump straight to that conclusion. Perhaps less will now that they've seen it doesn't always come from plot in first person. They will assume that someone wrote something on a sheet of paper. How it was made OOG should not indicate who it came from IG.



~B

Actally to be honest, there were a bunch of people who forwarded the idea that it might be a gypsy joke, but concluded that not even they would be stupid enuf to do something like this with the whole world at risk. Since it was printed and torn and placed most people presumed not that it was plot exactly, but that it had been pre-planed and written some time ago.
Course it turns out that the fact it was printed and torn and places just means that it was preplaned and written in advance. (Yes I know I just said that, its the point)


As to forceing all the players to write everything by hand, I think thats still a bad idea. Movable type printing presses were rather rare, but carved plates, scribes, ectching plates, ect are all well within the realm of the game. And tho realisticly it might take effort and money to run even a movable type press, to be honest its nothing compared to RL skills like smithing. And note for IG crafts we gloss over a lot of the upkeep. (I mean 5 PP and 5 copper covers the cost of the forge, metal,coal,work,add on bits, ect..)

 

[jpariury]

You and I both agreed on this, but took different aspects away from it. The problem with making them literally come only from plot means that every time we see a printed letter it would be from plot.

You're muddying the waters here. Preprinted pieces do not, under my suggestion, "literally come only from plot". All it does is makes sure that plot is aware of what is going on so that it can respond appropriately when players start actually getting investigative. The point you tried to make which I rebutted was that players will start going to plot when they see preprinted letter. This is no different than now, so your point was valueless.

But in all honesty, most printing of the time back then wasn't a "press". It was a tablet print either chiselled in stone or carved in a soft material and stamped onto paper.

Not only that, but back then, the incant for Ice Storm was in Latin!