Item theft, intent of item tag rules

M

Maxondaerth

Virtuoso
Thread split for straying too far off topic. For lead-in discussion, see this thread - JP

With all this in mind, would people please keep these things to heart and keep any non-tagged phys reps in your cars or OOG areas. Having an extra long sword phys rep is nice, but if you leave it sitting out and someone tries to rogue you and just grabs the phys rep and runs only to later find out that it didn't exist and they should have grabbed the pouch lying next to it instead that is really lame. I had to act as go-between for someone a few months back who looted a "magic dagger" later to find out it was only an extra phys rep which was sitting next to several small chests that probably had real loot in em. Time rewinds suck for IG environment, so please let's stash the orange globes that aren't actually being used at the time and the weapons and armour as well.

That's it, game on.

Jeff
 
I agree, and in fact the rule is that all OOG items need to be in OOG areas (be it in a car or under a bunk) and cannot be used over the course of the weekend.

-Dan
 
Dan, I'm assuming you mean except in the example like if my longsword phys rep breaks and I have that spare under my bed I can then tag it and use it for the rest of the weekend, yes? You're talking more about stashing 20 longsword tags under there but not pulling them out into the IG world until you lost your regular sword and now need a new one kinda thing, right?
Just making sure eveyone is on the same page here.

Jeff
 
Precisely, and in the case of things like extra physreps, they should be stored in a clearly OOG area. Conversely, someone roguing a location must have a marshal along, in part to make sure that no untagged items are taken (sugh as extra untagged weapons, personal items, etc).

-Dan
 
Having an extra long sword phys rep is nice, but if you leave it sitting out and someone tries to rogue you and just grabs the phys rep and runs only to later find out that it didn't exist>

This shouldn't ever occur, phys reps simply don't exist unless they have a tag on them. Since I have actually had a magic dagger phys rep taken without a tag from my cabin (and this was probably the situation that occured), even if it was a valid magic item the item should not exist that event (since all magic items should be at the event IG from game start to game end or until your character leaves the area). Weapons/Shields/Potions/Scrolls Etc tags must have phys reps attached to them (not have the tags in a pouch you carry).
A weapon phys rep without a tag is simply a non-functional item and does not have value.

On the same line of reasoning- This rule should be enforced. There shouldn't be any "you can steal a tag" rule as far as PCs go and it should be a primary effort to do the same with NPCs (however having run the game, I understand the cost and logistical problems of keeping NPCs in line with that idea).

As far as my PC goes I create a lot of production items. If it doesn't have a phys rep AND a tag it is no good. If you assume half the vials in my cabin are actually potions and come back OOG asking for a tag I would simply ask you why you stole a bunch of empty vials. If you steal one of my potion boxes full of vials and the tags with them, you got loot. Part of roguing includes taking the time to look at something and realize it is worthless or not (thus tag/no tag).

There is a reason I fill up a whole station wagon coming to NERO.

~B
 
I will be bringing clear cloth tape with me to the next event. Feel free to come grab some to affix your tags to your weapons.
 
OK. In the case of the dagger physrep, it should not have been in an in game area. If it is in an in game area, it is to be assumed *in game* untagged or not. If it is untagged, it is the fault of the person who owned the physrep, not the person who took the item since the person who had the physrep innapropriately in an in game area was, basicly, breaking the rules.

Now, as to your example about vials, I can actually see someone having a bunch of empty vials lying around. After all, part of producing the alchemy/potions is putting it into the vials.
 
well, if i had any scrolls, or could even use the skill, i would buy some from, you. But seeing as how i have neither the skill or the tags, sorry dude.
 
Dave said:
OK. In the case of the dagger physrep, it should not have been in an in game area. If it is in an in game area, it is to be assumed *in game* untagged or not. If it is untagged, it is the fault of the person who owned the physrep, not the person who took the item since the person who had the physrep innapropriately in an in game area was, basicly, breaking the rules.
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Okay... I'll have to disagree completely on that statement. Plus I play a rogue, so the thieving rules are very specific and if I'm going through the effort of tagging all my IG stuff approptiately, what's the point to say untagged items are IG?

A dagger phys rep without a tag is just that. It is a dagger phys rep. It is not ingame. An untagged item should *never* be assumed to be IG, without a tag it isn't ingame. Period.

It is not cheating to have untagged items in your cabin. They simply are not stealable, nor are they functional IG. They are personal property and shouldn't be taken out of the cabin. (A Rogue Marshal should know that untagged items are not stealable).

If anyone has been in the gypsy cabin (and several other likely decorated cabins), there are also dozens (if not hundreds) of various gemstones and trinkets. Some are worthless and some are not. The ones that are worth something are appropraitely tagged with a number, the ones that are not don't get numbered. Marshal's should not let any of the untagged stones leave the cabin. If someone should want to remove the worthless items, the marshal should leave a note with the marshal's notes on the door and place the worthless items aside (but the items should stay in the cabin).

~Barry
 
A part that I didn't add to that is that many items (including weapon/trap/armor phys reps) may actually be laying around IG, but still be worthless. I think I have a shop for every production skill there is, which means I should actually be working on them occassionally IG. (As a side note, Balryn can be pissy with ya if you catch him making a "batch o boom")

I'm not trying to fight here, I just think there has been a wierd interpretation of tagging rules going on and if the rules are properly enforced with tags being on IG items, people will actually take the time to do so (rather than some of the half-hearted attempts when people say "oh yea, I have a tag for this sword back in my cabin")
 
In point of fact, having an out of game weapon physrep stored in an in game area is basicly the same thing as carrying a sword without a tag. I am not saying you can't have untagged items in your cabin, just that you can't have an untagged weapon physrep in an in game area in your cabin. If they are in an in game area, they are assumed to be in game. If you have an untagged weapon physrep in an in game area you are, basically, breaking the rules just as much as the person carrying around an untagged sword for in game purposes.

A rogue marshall sees on the marshall notes which areas are in game and out of game only. Anything not in an out of game area is assumed to be in play. Therefore, any physreps in an in game area are assumed to be in play under the rules. Since an untagged weapon physrep is not a legal in play item, it should remain in an out of game area until such time as it is actually tagged and in play.

As far as the trinkets go, yes. I agree that decoration items are, often, worthless and untagged. This done not mean that they are not stealable if they are in an in game area. Personal property concerns are, of course, taken into account, but the items (if stolen) should (imo) be moved to an out of game area.

The problem I have in this *specific* case is that an out of game weapon was not in an out of game area. It was stored in an *in game* area. Since the rules for weapon physreps are very different from your average belt of false coins hanging across a rafter, it must be enforced as the rules clearly have been interpretted. Weapon physreps require tags to be in an in game area.
 
Might I interject that:
1. Someone needs to print more weapon (and various and sundry other) tags so that the logistics boxes can be full and tags can be given out for things. I will personally volunteer to cut the damn things just so we have the tags.
and
2. This has gone way off topic. I think the tag discussion needs to be moved to a different thread.

Ryan, I will be buying scroll physreps when I have a decent set of horns. Will you offer a bulk discount if it means you don't have to cut them yourself?
 
Sure. I can work out deals to suit people on an individual basis if it needs to be that way. Bulk deals are totally alright by me.

I dont necissarily mind the discussion. It could have been placed somewhere better, but it sounds like this is a rule that has been needing some clearification.
 
Dave said:
As far as the trinkets go, yes. I agree that decoration items are, often, worthless and untagged. This done not mean that they are not stealable if they are in an in game area. Personal property concerns are, of course, taken into account, but the items (if stolen) should (imo) be moved to an out of game area.
Click to expand...

Searching and Stealing, P.99, second column, second paragraph
The Rulebook said:
Not everything in play is stealable. Make sure there is a number on the item that you want to steal.
Click to expand...

The whole conversation gets extremely tricky, as the book details different stealing rules for if a thing is an item, a weapon, an npc weapon, or a magic item.

*If an NPC has a weapon, the tag (and only the tag) might be stealable.
*If an NPC has an untagged item, like a hat or a bell, then it is not stealable.
*If an NPC has a tagged item that is not a weapon, it is stealable.
*If an NPC has a magical tagged weapon, then the tag and physrep are stealable.
*If a PC has any of the above, they are the same, except in the case of number 1, in which the physrep and tag of a weapon are stealable, however the physrep must be turned over to logistics when it is convenient.

Its silly to say that everyone carrying a sword must have a tag and vice versa, otherwise NPCs would have to give out way to many swords as loot, and if they just gave out tags and held on to the NPC physreps, suddenly the sword disappears in PC hands. You've got to have some carryover time and try not to be too hardline on the rules.

~Matt
 
If Seattle is going to begin enforcing, with full force, tag policies, then PC items should, in fact, be tagged. If they are not tagged in some fashion (tag or item number) then they are not properly in game and the issue should be dealt with with the player.
Also, not all non-tagged items are unstealable. Everything stealable should be described and written down in the marshal notes for a cabin. EVerything that is not stealable but is an accurate physrep for something that is (armor, weapons, scrolls) should be out of game. Out of game areas should also be described on the marshal notes. If an item is too large to stash in one of these areas (some tupperware bins don't fit) then it should be clearly marked as out of game and included in the marshal notes.

On a side note, I feel unique physreps should stay with the tags until such a time as the item is fenced or otherwise gotten rid of. The point behind having unique physreps is that they are readily recognizable.
 
Dave said:
If they are in an in game area, they are assumed to be in game. If you have an untagged weapon physrep in an in game area you are, basically, breaking the rules just as much as the person carrying around an untagged sword for in game purposes.
Click to expand...

I think you are missing my point actually, that an untagged item (even a sword phys rep) is worthless. You aren't breaking any rules carrying around a sword phys rep without a tag. It just can't be used as a sword and you'll take damage if it gets hit. In all reality, I'm amazed that whoever took the dagger didn't take the white 1 1/2 handed sword that was actually hanging on the wall. It's not magical anymore, but it was far flashier. In various years I've seen several casters carry swords that were not functioning swords (and it didn't matter to them because they had no skill to use it anyways).

I.E.
White sword rep does not equal IG magic sword. Just cool looking display sword.
White sword rep + signed and attached tag equals IG magic sword. Cool looking AND functional!

Dave said:
Anything not in an out of game area is assumed to be in play. Therefore, any physreps in an in game area are assumed to be in play under the rules. Since an untagged weapon physrep is not a legal in play item, it should remain in an out of game area until such time as it is actually tagged and in play.
Click to expand...

I agree with that first half, but an untagged sword can still exist in game as a worthless item. An untagged sword can be a "ingame" - just not functional. If someone got a little miffed they stole a worthless item it's not my fault.

Dave said:
As far as the trinkets go, yes. I agree that decoration items are, often, worthless and untagged.
Click to expand...

Haha. Maybe this is the root of our problem. You are telling someone who plays a gypsy what a decoration item should be. :)

Dave said:
The problem I have in this *specific* case is that an out of game weapon was not in an out of game area. It was stored in an *in game* area. Since the rules for weapon physreps are very different from your average belt of false coins hanging across a rafter, it must be enforced as the rules clearly have been interpretted. Weapon physreps require tags to be in an in game area.
Click to expand...

I honestly don't remember ANY difference in weapon phys reps vs other phys reps being tagged. Without a tag, an item is worthless and cannot be used for an IG skill. I've had plenty of "shield" items that were indeed worthless, and everytime they got hit I took damage.

I honestly think tag rules should just be enforced. There should NEVER be an assumption that something is an ingame item without a tag. If an item is too small for a full size tag it should be numbered (I've even numbered my rings with a dremel before).

As a rogue (or anyone who steals) you should be looking for tags and/or numbers on items. If you want to steal the worthless items and return them OOG that's cool, but you shouldn't get miffed about stealing a worthless rep either. I leave plenty of untagged items out which look neat, some of them weapons and armor phys reps which are completely worthless.

Barry
 
Just so you know I have been given orders to put out weapon tags for every weapon that has been going at events. That is the reason why we no longer have any weapon tags. So we are trying to make sure that the NPC weapons are tagged. We have also been told that we are to tag everything or it can not be used, and all viles and scrolls must have a physrep. So we are trying to make sure that the npc follow the rules as well.
 
That is, quite frankly, a waste of treasure policy, and it is so blatantly so that there are specifically passages in the rulebook to allow for npc weapons and traps and whatnot to go out without being stealable. The treasure policy is meant to be just that, Treasure. Getting 30 longswords per event is not treasure, and that's why there's provisions in the book to avoid doing that. Furthermore, once the PCs gain those 30 longswords, there is no way that they brought an extra 30 physreps, making it worthless. However, putting it out of game is cheating, and leaving it in game is cheating, so it just can't be done.
 
Kerjal Obcidian said:
That is, quite frankly, a waste of treasure policy, and it is so blatantly so that there are specifically passages in the rulebook to allow for npc weapons and traps and whatnot to go out without being stealable. The treasure policy is meant to be just that, Treasure. Getting 30 longswords per event is not treasure, and that's why there's provisions in the book to avoid doing that. Furthermore, once the PCs gain those 30 longswords, there is no way that they brought an extra 30 physreps, making it worthless. However, putting it out of game is cheating, and leaving it in game is cheating, so it just can't be done.
Click to expand...

Hooray for catch-22!
 
Hooray for a merchant economy where you can probably find some smith to buy them and give you hard coin for them...
 
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