Item theft, intent of item tag rules
- Thread starter Maxondaerth
- Start date
Kauss said:
It may glut the market, but you can actually send out as many swords as you want assuming plot can come up with a way to take them back. It is only considered in the treasure policy if the same amount of $$$ and points isn't taken back out. If they put in 20 swords, they could also take 20 swords out. That breaks even. They could also make you use a scroll to attain a sword, again breaking even. The treasure only counts if you end up with more production or gold value at the end of the event.
As far as flooding the market, it really doesn't happen if plot gets people involved with moving supplies and services more. Hell Balryn uses caravans to move goods left and right to his friends and enemies. Plot just has to come up with ways to keep the wheel consistently turning so that the players don't end up with huge stocks of supplies that were not intended to be taken out again.
~B
jpariury
Paragon
Matt, the intent of the text you quoted re: what is and isn't stealable is to delineate what items may be removed and possessed by the characters OOG. IE What is and isn't stealable on an OOG level. "Worthless items" (untagged items) may be "stolen" IG by informing the marshal of your intent, and placing the item in an OOG area, within reason.
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Barry:
1) A non-tagged weapon should not have a white striking surface, as white strikinig surfaces is specifically set aside to denote magical auras. To do otherwise only adds to the confusion. Likewise, magic items are considered the property of NERO, and as such, are stealable.
2) Magic items very often do not have a magic item tag *attached*, they often only have an item number. Thus, it is reasonable that a player might, for instance, pick another player's IG pocket, and "steal" an object without knowing if it is "of worth". Ideally, once the thief realizes that an item is untagged and not numbered, he/she should turn the object over to a marshal to return to the player. If non-game, non-tagged objects are found to have been stolen, then marshals and staff will look to the intent of the thief in order to determine how to handle the situation.
3) Nothing prevents a thief IG from simply stealing *everything* and sorting it out later. Kind of like the "stick the body in the bag and see what stays once it dissipates" theory, a thief could simply toss everything in a bag, walk out, and see what is left when he gets home. If a marshal was willing and able to stick with the bag-o-loot until the thief got somewhere that they could sort out the tagged items from the untagged, they should mark on the notes that they will be returning with OOG rep items, and then do so once possible, placing them in one of the designated OOG locations.
But there is. Tags without reps are stealable, under the current system. (No book on hand, I'll dig it out next week) I am all for changing that rule, but until the rulebook is changed by new edition or addendum, such is what it is.
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Dave: Physreps do not require tags in order to be in an IG area. Often a physrep might be representing something that is not a completed item, as in the case of armor, traps, vials, etc. I agree that in the specific case of a magic dagger physrep (if so denoted by a white striking surface), the player is not at fault for attempting to steal the object sans tag, since, as I noted above, often magic items will not have a tag attached to the physrep, but merely be denoted with a number or other symbol scratched onto a location.
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Matt,
With regards to treasure policy, it is neither "abuse" nor "improper" to put out weapon tags for everything you send out, anymore than it is "abuse" to put out LCO magic items which cannot be created using the PC-available ritual system in place. It is strictly local flavor. I would suggest, however, that anyone flooded with fiddy-million sword tags hasn't considered the possible outlets through working with Plot. For instance, if, say, Whisper were to get his hands on fiddy-million swords, he'd consider fielding his own army, or supplying the weapons to a local group of rabble rousers, or any myriad of other things. If your character, otoh, would find such objects "worthless", then you may deal with it as you see fit, IG.
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Another random thought from reading this conversation:
If a weapon physrep breaks, the item IG is considered destroyed, as per the spell effect. If the object is immune to destroy, you must fix the physrep as soon as possible.
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Barry:
1) A non-tagged weapon should not have a white striking surface, as white strikinig surfaces is specifically set aside to denote magical auras. To do otherwise only adds to the confusion. Likewise, magic items are considered the property of NERO, and as such, are stealable.
2) Magic items very often do not have a magic item tag *attached*, they often only have an item number. Thus, it is reasonable that a player might, for instance, pick another player's IG pocket, and "steal" an object without knowing if it is "of worth". Ideally, once the thief realizes that an item is untagged and not numbered, he/she should turn the object over to a marshal to return to the player. If non-game, non-tagged objects are found to have been stolen, then marshals and staff will look to the intent of the thief in order to determine how to handle the situation.
3) Nothing prevents a thief IG from simply stealing *everything* and sorting it out later. Kind of like the "stick the body in the bag and see what stays once it dissipates" theory, a thief could simply toss everything in a bag, walk out, and see what is left when he gets home. If a marshal was willing and able to stick with the bag-o-loot until the thief got somewhere that they could sort out the tagged items from the untagged, they should mark on the notes that they will be returning with OOG rep items, and then do so once possible, placing them in one of the designated OOG locations.
But there is. Tags without reps are stealable, under the current system. (No book on hand, I'll dig it out next week) I am all for changing that rule, but until the rulebook is changed by new edition or addendum, such is what it is.
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Dave: Physreps do not require tags in order to be in an IG area. Often a physrep might be representing something that is not a completed item, as in the case of armor, traps, vials, etc. I agree that in the specific case of a magic dagger physrep (if so denoted by a white striking surface), the player is not at fault for attempting to steal the object sans tag, since, as I noted above, often magic items will not have a tag attached to the physrep, but merely be denoted with a number or other symbol scratched onto a location.
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Matt,
With regards to treasure policy, it is neither "abuse" nor "improper" to put out weapon tags for everything you send out, anymore than it is "abuse" to put out LCO magic items which cannot be created using the PC-available ritual system in place. It is strictly local flavor. I would suggest, however, that anyone flooded with fiddy-million sword tags hasn't considered the possible outlets through working with Plot. For instance, if, say, Whisper were to get his hands on fiddy-million swords, he'd consider fielding his own army, or supplying the weapons to a local group of rabble rousers, or any myriad of other things. If your character, otoh, would find such objects "worthless", then you may deal with it as you see fit, IG.
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Another random thought from reading this conversation:
If a weapon physrep breaks, the item IG is considered destroyed, as per the spell effect. If the object is immune to destroy, you must fix the physrep as soon as possible.
jpariury said:
I agree, but likewise in this case the item didn't have a number either. I really didn't care that someone tried to steal something, but someone seems to have got miffed about it because I've heard it brought up by at least a half-dozen people.
jpariury said:
I agree with this entirely. In fact it's how I have rogued many cabins. A few times in Cali we even took the mattresses out (we did however help them to put the mattresses back later that day). I even bring 4-5 game bags (the kind for hauling deer) to the game with me for doing this. But if a rogue specifically grabs items that *look* valuable at a glance, he'll probably be sorely disappointed when he realizes it's not (which is exactly the case that happened with the dagger).
jpariury said:
Oh I know there is a rule in the book stating so, but the idea of NERO is that we are trying to establish a game with substance. Not a game based on paper. If plot doesn't make it a primary effort and goal to make items have phys reps at all times, then the players will follow thier lead and not have phys reps as well. Tags are stealable by themselves, phys reps are not. In essence you are always "stealing the tag". That is why if a phys rep is present for a tag, the tag should be with the object (not in a pouch or in your cabin).
I alway loved the tag rules when running things myself. Such a messed up thing.
Shikar al'Basteua
Elite
One thing on stealing the tag; this is valid for all production items, however magic items are a different matter.
In the case of a magic item the physrep itself is considered to be the item. The tag by itself is only a description of the item's abilities and is not in itself stealable. Magic items may not be used unless both tag and physrep are in a player's posession, and when stored the tag should be kept reasonably near to the rep.
If you believe you have stolen a magic item you should have your rogue marshal retrieve the tag for you. Conversely, if you have found a magic item tag with no identifiable physrep you should give the tag to the marshal to be returned to the player (within reason...if you are digging around in someone's belonings and find a tag you should probably just leave it in place).
-Dan
In the case of a magic item the physrep itself is considered to be the item. The tag by itself is only a description of the item's abilities and is not in itself stealable. Magic items may not be used unless both tag and physrep are in a player's posession, and when stored the tag should be kept reasonably near to the rep.
If you believe you have stolen a magic item you should have your rogue marshal retrieve the tag for you. Conversely, if you have found a magic item tag with no identifiable physrep you should give the tag to the marshal to be returned to the player (within reason...if you are digging around in someone's belonings and find a tag you should probably just leave it in place).
-Dan
Seattle_Dave
Virtuoso
OK. I have had a couple of things clarified for me and I think I can now correct my earlier postings (perils of extrapolation)
out of game items should remain in out of game areas. There is a very large difference between out of game items and untagged ones.
Balryn, you are absolutely correct that a weapon physrep without a tag is just a conveniently weapon shaped mass of something which has no in game effect other than looking like a weapon (without actually being a functional one). Someone could steal an un-tagged weapon physrep and have nothing more than a worthless something or other that doesn't quite work as a weapon.
I apologize for adding to the confusion on this topic.
out of game items should remain in out of game areas. There is a very large difference between out of game items and untagged ones.
Balryn, you are absolutely correct that a weapon physrep without a tag is just a conveniently weapon shaped mass of something which has no in game effect other than looking like a weapon (without actually being a functional one). Someone could steal an un-tagged weapon physrep and have nothing more than a worthless something or other that doesn't quite work as a weapon.
I apologize for adding to the confusion on this topic.
Maxondaerth
Virtuoso
I have to chime in on this and put a comment about the use of non-tagged items as phys repping a worthless or non-usable weapon or armour. I'll use a sword as an example. The whole point of carrying a sword phys rep is exactly that: to physically represent a real sword in the NERO world. In the real world I can tell the difference on sight between a tin toy sword and a hardened, sharpened sword that could actually take a hit. Since I, as a player, cannot tell the difference by looking at your cloth covered foam and pipe phys rep as to whether it's a battle hardened weapon or a stage prop, it is unfair to the game to tote it around and just state that it isn't REALLY a sword. We already have to suspend whole boatloads of disbelief in the course of the game as is, let's not muddy the field any more than it already is.
Here's a very real possibility to think about. I am standing in Kauss's cabin. I somehow left my sword in my cabin (for sake of argument, I know the thought of Solomon without a sword is laughable, but bear with me here). Trolls bust in and attack. I spot a short sword lying on the floor and grab it, handily beating the snot out of the trolls single handedly. After having saved the day, Kauss says "Hey, I was still working on that short sword, it isn't really finished yet." we are now faced with the ugly prospect of having to rewind time because techinically those trolls are still alive and we'd have all died because I didn't really have a sword.
All humor aside, we gotta do all we can to avoid this kinda stuff and, let's be honest, we should be doing this anyway so what's the big deal? Let's get back to arguing over something worthwhile, like is chaos necromancy?
*ducks his head and hastily leaves the room while thrown objects sail over his head*
Jeff
Here's a very real possibility to think about. I am standing in Kauss's cabin. I somehow left my sword in my cabin (for sake of argument, I know the thought of Solomon without a sword is laughable, but bear with me here). Trolls bust in and attack. I spot a short sword lying on the floor and grab it, handily beating the snot out of the trolls single handedly. After having saved the day, Kauss says "Hey, I was still working on that short sword, it isn't really finished yet." we are now faced with the ugly prospect of having to rewind time because techinically those trolls are still alive and we'd have all died because I didn't really have a sword.
All humor aside, we gotta do all we can to avoid this kinda stuff and, let's be honest, we should be doing this anyway so what's the big deal? Let's get back to arguing over something worthwhile, like is chaos necromancy?
*ducks his head and hastily leaves the room while thrown objects sail over his head*
Jeff
Johnathan Lancaster
Specialist
Solomon Maxondaerth said:
Interesting idea, Jeff. Lets get Mike V. here to answer that question for us.
jpariury
Paragon
Since I, as a player, cannot tell the difference by looking at your cloth covered foam and pipe phys rep as to whether it's a battle hardened weapon or a stage prop
But you can: does it have a tag attached?
Personally, I'm favor of business card tags (stock and dimension). Easier to see, easier to remove from sleeves, etc. Just hard on the NERO wallet.
(for sake of argument, I know the thought of Solomon without a sword is laughable, but bear with me here)
The thought of Solomon tooling down a horde of trolls is laughable, why stop there? *ducks and runs*
After having saved the day, Kauss says "Hey, I was still working on that short sword, it isn't really finished yet." we are now faced with the ugly prospect of having to rewind time because techinically those trolls are still alive and we'd have all died because I didn't really have a sword.
Personally? As a marshal, I'd look to the intent. You didn't mean to use a non-tagged item. So I'd let it go, let it fall under the "NPC untagged weapons" rule, and give you a verbal warning to be more careful next time. No harm, no foul. If, otoh, I kept hearing about you doing it, then we'd clearly have a BOC on our hands.
Let's get back to arguing over something worthwhile, like is chaos necromancy?
By the rules, yes. The real question is "Is necromancy a bad thing?".
But you can: does it have a tag attached?
Personally, I'm favor of business card tags (stock and dimension). Easier to see, easier to remove from sleeves, etc. Just hard on the NERO wallet.
(for sake of argument, I know the thought of Solomon without a sword is laughable, but bear with me here)
The thought of Solomon tooling down a horde of trolls is laughable, why stop there? *ducks and runs*
After having saved the day, Kauss says "Hey, I was still working on that short sword, it isn't really finished yet." we are now faced with the ugly prospect of having to rewind time because techinically those trolls are still alive and we'd have all died because I didn't really have a sword.
Personally? As a marshal, I'd look to the intent. You didn't mean to use a non-tagged item. So I'd let it go, let it fall under the "NPC untagged weapons" rule, and give you a verbal warning to be more careful next time. No harm, no foul. If, otoh, I kept hearing about you doing it, then we'd clearly have a BOC on our hands.
Let's get back to arguing over something worthwhile, like is chaos necromancy?
By the rules, yes. The real question is "Is necromancy a bad thing?".
Maxondaerth
Virtuoso
I was mostly referring to spotting a real sword vs a sword like substance at a range of say 10-15ft which, in broad daylight, is reasonable I would think to tell but not necessarily to spot a tag, which may be attatched to the side facing away from me or covered by your sleeve or somesuch. In that instance no, I can't tell if it's a tagged item or not and I should be able to tell if it's actually a sword or not for game dynamics.
Jeff
Jeff
A
Anonymous
Guest
Concerning NPC weapons and items, the weapon/armor/shield/item shouldn't always be stealable because as said, it would offset the market. Just simply take the knowledge that the weapon/shield/armor/item being used by the NPC was broken during the fight. Thats the simpliest answer to the question about NPCs, and as the rules do state, they shouldn't give out weapons every time they die. Either that or assume that the weapon/shield/armor/item is rusty, disgusting and worthless, that no self-respecting adventurer would take.
Maru
Maru
jpariury
Paragon
Solomon Maxondaerth said:
I think we'll just agree to disagree on this one. I feel that noting the difference between a "useless" sword, and a "useful" sword requires however long it takes and whatever actions it takes to determine if there is a tag attached. Sometimes you can do it from thirty feet away, sometimes you have to hold it, feel the weight, etc.
Maxondaerth
Virtuoso
Okay I'll grant you that exception, but where does one draw said line? What about "useless" shields? And, if you allowed me to use a "shield that isn't a shiled", could I now use that as a confusion tactic? Strap a small non-shield to my forearm and then charge into battle with a polearm making my fellow players think they don't have to take my damage while I have to take all of theirs, and then smirk at them and shout "It only LOOKS like a shield! Ha ha!" Yes, I know this is an intent of the rule kind of a thing, but THAT is the root of this whole discussion. The INTENT of the tag your weapon rule is: if it ain't tagged, it don't exist. I'm not a marshall and I'm not staff so I have no power to make anyone follow this intent, but anyone seen running around with non-items is gonna lose serious points in many people's eyes in reguards to what kind of player you really are, so I encourage everyone to take that into consideration when stashing your stuff under the bed before game gets called.
I'm done.
Jeff
I'm done.
Jeff
jpariury said:
Does this mean that I can carry around packets full of sunflower seeds even if I have no spells? They aren't NERO legal packets and they aren't tagged so there should be no problem with me carrying them.
So a person could carry a second weapon physrep with no tag. Thereby confusing anyone they're fighting who would foolishly assume that their second weapon actually existed? While I'm at it why don't I go putting up Ws on every building. Since there's no ward tag anyone can still enter but there's nothing to stop me.
In essence using a weapon physrep (especially a white one) as an ingame costuming piece and not having it tagged is just plain cheating. I could just as easily carry around a white weapon physrep then when someone jumped me to take it I could say "it's out of game". Better yet I should carry around an OOG weapon and wait for something to unload it's shatters at me and then pull my real weapon. And while I'm at it I should carry around my clear OOG coin pouch so that everyone can see how much money I have and hear it jingle but not be able to take it from me. Regardless any of these actions show blatent disrespect for the intent of the game. The intent of the rule is that physreps are to be tagged to exist in game. If they are not tagged they must be placed in an out of game area.
The rules state that a "weapon" is defined as any NERO safe boffer weapon that has a safety tag. Furthermore EVERY weapon must have two tags attached, A weapon Safety Tag and a Weapon Tag. (p28)
If your weapon fails safety check if should be placed in an OOG area because it is UNSAFE and anyone could attempt to use it if left in an ingame area. If it passes safety then it MUST have a weapon tag.
Anything stating otherwise is just a bad call plain and simple.
Marc
A
Anonymous
Guest
How 'bout just denoting a unused color, blue maybe, and if the striking surface of a weapon is marked in that color it is Decorative. Same thing with half-made armor or weapons... It would have to be a 'this-chapter-only' thing, but it might work.
I agree with Diera here on both points on the prior post, obviously illegal reps also make sense (just my vote of confidence here!), and it is just clearly taking advantage of rules to use accurate phys-reps as IG non-fuctioning items, for reasons stated by other people.
I agree with Diera here on both points on the prior post, obviously illegal reps also make sense (just my vote of confidence here!), and it is just clearly taking advantage of rules to use accurate phys-reps as IG non-fuctioning items, for reasons stated by other people.
jpariury
Paragon
Jeff,
I think overall we're in agreement. If someone is doing it to intentionally cause confusion due to OOG funkiness, then they're failing to be "good players". Player peer-pressure goes a long way.
Originally posted by Marc
Does this mean that I can carry around packets full of sunflower seeds even if I have no spells?
I'm not seeing the parallel, maybe you could spell it out for me better, or type slower. Tagged or untagged, NERO-legal weapons remain NERO-legal weapons.
They aren't tagged so there should be no problem with me carrying them.
Do they have the look and appearance of spell packets, or are you carrying around a big bag of sunflower seeds? Again, a marshal should be looking to intent, rather than trying to work around what is likely to be hopelessly flawed wording.
So a person could carry a second weapon physrep with no tag. Thereby confusing anyone they're fighting who would foolishly assume that their second weapon actually existed? While I'm at it why don't I go putting up Ws on every building. Since there's no ward tag anyone can still enter but there's nothing to stop me.
See the above notes on intent.
In essence using a weapon physrep (especially a white one) as an ingame costuming piece and not having it tagged is just plain cheating.
Not necessarily. In the case of white striking surfaces, that is a marking system set aside to specifically denote an effect or status, similar to white and yellow headbands, so yes, white bladed axes that lack a correlating magic item tag would be violating the intent of the rules, whereas an untagged weapon rep may not (depending on the intent of the player).
Regardless any of these actions show blatent disrespect for the intent of the game. The intent of the rule is that physreps are to be tagged to exist in game. If they are not tagged they must be placed in an out of game area.
Here we have to look at things logistically. If a player has a weapon shattered, the physrep is OOG. But it is unreasonable to expect the player to call a hold in order to go back to their cabin and put it in an OOG location. So again, we need to look to intent of the player in addition to the intent of the rule. Likewise, not all NPC weapons need to be tagged, and if an NPC is disarmed, it is viable and legal for a player to pick it up and beat down whatever with it, until combat is over, despite the lack of weapon tag. Thus, it can be reasonably construed that weapon reps may be left lying out in IG areas, and even carried by players, depending on the intent of the player. (Another example that comes to mind is when a player is given a weapon tag from an NPC. Another player has a spare rep in their cabin, and so they hike back the hundred yards from the lake to go get one for the first player. If they get jumped on the way back, they can easily say "Hey, this isn't here" and play can resume with scarcely a pause. If, OTOH, someone runs around with ten sword reps without a good reason, and only causes confusion, then I have no problem suggesting that they leave the reps elsewhere.)
If your weapon fails safety check if should be placed in an OOG area because it is UNSAFE and anyone could attempt to use it if left in an ingame area.
This is fairly true, however, I see no fault in leaving PVC lying around one's room, as well as loose foam, etc., particularly if you are repping a smithy. Again, intent.
If it passes safety then it MUST have a weapon tag.
Not really. NPC weapons are the obvious exception. I have no problem with people getting safety tags without having item tags. You might get a tag for it later, for example.
Originally posted by Merxis
How 'bout just denoting a unused color, blue maybe, and if the striking surface of a weapon is marked in that color it is Decorative. Same thing with half-made armor or weapons... It would have to be a 'this-chapter-only' thing, but it might work.
That is a suggestion that we might consider. Thank you for it.
I think overall we're in agreement. If someone is doing it to intentionally cause confusion due to OOG funkiness, then they're failing to be "good players". Player peer-pressure goes a long way.
Originally posted by Marc
Does this mean that I can carry around packets full of sunflower seeds even if I have no spells?
I'm not seeing the parallel, maybe you could spell it out for me better, or type slower. Tagged or untagged, NERO-legal weapons remain NERO-legal weapons.
They aren't tagged so there should be no problem with me carrying them.
Do they have the look and appearance of spell packets, or are you carrying around a big bag of sunflower seeds? Again, a marshal should be looking to intent, rather than trying to work around what is likely to be hopelessly flawed wording.
So a person could carry a second weapon physrep with no tag. Thereby confusing anyone they're fighting who would foolishly assume that their second weapon actually existed? While I'm at it why don't I go putting up Ws on every building. Since there's no ward tag anyone can still enter but there's nothing to stop me.
See the above notes on intent.
In essence using a weapon physrep (especially a white one) as an ingame costuming piece and not having it tagged is just plain cheating.
Not necessarily. In the case of white striking surfaces, that is a marking system set aside to specifically denote an effect or status, similar to white and yellow headbands, so yes, white bladed axes that lack a correlating magic item tag would be violating the intent of the rules, whereas an untagged weapon rep may not (depending on the intent of the player).
Regardless any of these actions show blatent disrespect for the intent of the game. The intent of the rule is that physreps are to be tagged to exist in game. If they are not tagged they must be placed in an out of game area.
Here we have to look at things logistically. If a player has a weapon shattered, the physrep is OOG. But it is unreasonable to expect the player to call a hold in order to go back to their cabin and put it in an OOG location. So again, we need to look to intent of the player in addition to the intent of the rule. Likewise, not all NPC weapons need to be tagged, and if an NPC is disarmed, it is viable and legal for a player to pick it up and beat down whatever with it, until combat is over, despite the lack of weapon tag. Thus, it can be reasonably construed that weapon reps may be left lying out in IG areas, and even carried by players, depending on the intent of the player. (Another example that comes to mind is when a player is given a weapon tag from an NPC. Another player has a spare rep in their cabin, and so they hike back the hundred yards from the lake to go get one for the first player. If they get jumped on the way back, they can easily say "Hey, this isn't here" and play can resume with scarcely a pause. If, OTOH, someone runs around with ten sword reps without a good reason, and only causes confusion, then I have no problem suggesting that they leave the reps elsewhere.)
If your weapon fails safety check if should be placed in an OOG area because it is UNSAFE and anyone could attempt to use it if left in an ingame area.
This is fairly true, however, I see no fault in leaving PVC lying around one's room, as well as loose foam, etc., particularly if you are repping a smithy. Again, intent.
If it passes safety then it MUST have a weapon tag.
Not really. NPC weapons are the obvious exception. I have no problem with people getting safety tags without having item tags. You might get a tag for it later, for example.
Originally posted by Merxis
How 'bout just denoting a unused color, blue maybe, and if the striking surface of a weapon is marked in that color it is Decorative. Same thing with half-made armor or weapons... It would have to be a 'this-chapter-only' thing, but it might work.
That is a suggestion that we might consider. Thank you for it.