Legal Question'

Air Raksa

Scholar
I have question'.

Using death spell' and killing blow' against citizen' is illegal? Does this mean that I can raise charge' against people who have done this to me while I was Vampire Charmed, Transformed into Undead, Berserk, Paranoid, and otherwise completely under the control of a wandering monster? That is a very long list of people.

Can people raise charge' against me for saving their life with a killing blow? That is a very very very long list of people.

Should I not attack a citizen who is in the process of committing a crime for "fear" that I will not be unable to defend myself using the same method' that the adventurer is using?

Sometime' adventurer' have ample protection against certain form' of magic. I dare you to try to bind me, it is a very weak magic school. If I am doing something wrong then I welcome you to stop me with anything at your disposal.

The argument of "how would we know what you intended to do" is antiquated. A person should be able to stand upon their character alone. Especially if that person is an actual belted knight, who was squired and is beholden to the Chivalric Code. In my land' the Measure of the Rose states "Thou Shalt be Honest in Deed and Intention". This mean' that sometime' we have to be as cold as our enemy, which is acceptable so long as the end result' are just and righteous. Anyone who say' that Ciarrah meant to kill a citizen will have a long list of Knight' and powerful warrior' that will challenge them for speaking such word'.

I want you to know that if I was a healer and someone came into a pile of bodies that were in my care and attacked them of their own free will. I would have done a whole lot worse than throw a Death Spell. I have known healer' who by that point should be excused of any wrong-doing and in fact that should be considered a positive trait, one that we all should be very proud of.

I want to know what is expected of us legally so that I don't go poor fighting void and saving skinless children.

-Santet
 
Goodman Santet,

The laws of Eire offer a noble guideline of how we might live in common accord. They are also open to interpretation. This is quite intentional, both to respect the sovereignty of the Justicars to apply the law as they deem fit within their own lands, and in respect and understanding for the actions we must often take as adventurers on the front lines of our darknened realm. I am no Lord Seneschal, who are the true arbiters of our law. However as a student of our law, here would be my answer and interpretation of the questions you have asked and the scenarios you described.

There is no law specifically against the use of a Death spell or "killing blow" at all. Rather there are the crimes of Assault, Battery, and Murder if the victim dies from the attack. Which is to say there is threatening to harm someone, actually harming or attempting to harm someone, and then of course killing them. The law does not distinguish between what abilities might be used to do so, except of course in the case of using necromancy, which is its own High Crime. Neither a Death spell nor "killing blow" fall into this category of course.

As to the scenario you describe.... It has not only happened, but I would say is even common occurrence, that adventures have used lethal measures to combat fellow citizens under the effects of various mind controlling spells or potions such as the ones you described. In my experience, we see this quite often towards the end of long days of combat, when such other measures as Awakens and like abilities have been spent. There is also precedent of such means being used under noble order, when other recourse was not available. Case in point, some season or two past when a number of us were infected by the wasting plague. Under noble order, and for the protection of the citizenry at large, we were ordered killing blowed, and the set afire to burn away the disease, before being granted a Life spell and additional healing as needed. So clearly there is precedent.

Having said that, any citizen is free to bring charge against another if they believe that have been threatened or attacked. There is nothing I see in the law to prevent them from simply bringing charge. However, in all charges of crimes and low crimes the onus is on the accuser to prove guilt, and so in this case to prove that harm or death was intended. I think you see then why such charges, in such circumstances as you describe, have to my knowledge not been brought forward before. And I am surprised to hear it is an issue now. The laws of Eire have always allowed for the citizen races of Eire to protect themselves and those around them from the dangers that are ever present in our lives. And as I know it, the laws or Eire have never attempted to restrict the means we might use to defend ourselves, outside of course through the use of necromancy which is itself an evil and unlawlful act.

The question though of course becomes, what was done after the the danger was averted? Assuming a citizen, under the effects of some spell or whatnot, turns upon his friends and is then stuck down for the protection of those around him.... what happened after he was struck down? Was there an attempt to remedy his affliction and save him? Was such a thing even possible with the resources at hand?

As ever, how these laws are interpreted and applied is up to the Justicar of the Bastion in which these events occurred. Assuming it was the Hollow, It is for Justicar Crowe to make the final ruling as to whether lethal measures are acceptable to defend oneself from a citizen who is under undue influence and his actions beyond his control. But the above is how I would interpret the law in general, and I hope that is of use to you. If there is specific charge against Ciarah, please have her seek me out, I would be happy to act as her counsel if she so requires one.

In faith,
Lord Nicodemus Ravenseye.
 

Air Raksa

Scholar
My Faithful Lord

Just so I understand.

There is no written law against using killing blow' and death spell'. We can defend ourself' and our charge' however we want.

The Justicar' can interpret the law' of assault, battery and murder each in their own way'. We have no way to know or even guess how these law' will be applied. So sometime' it you actually have to go through all of a High Mage' defense', waste your spell' or just not bother stopping them from killing illegally defenseless prisoner'.

Sometime' toward' the end of combat it might be okay. It is okay to kill people and burn their body if a noble say' go for it. But sometime' if you are trying to carry out a noble order then you might be punished anyway?

What trial? Ciarrah was guilty, she was never for even a second innocent. Justicar Crowe wasn't present and the crime didn't take place in his Bastion.

Who govern' the Justicar'?

Who has the authority to Pardon criminal'?

If I present two dozen case' of assault, battery and murder, will they each be investigated separately? Who should I go to?

-Santet
 

Michiko

Adept
You have questions, Santet Menggosok Tarang. So do I. What of the danger Dame Ciaarah’s actions brought upon the people who were present at the time? I’m sure I don’t have to describe to you a warrior’s instinct to lash out at whatever is attacking his or her healer. When I turned and saw her casting Death spells at Qiu Jun-Wu I was within the breadth of a hair from striking her down. Fortunately, I found it within myself to hold my blade. What would have happened had I not? How would you have responded when I struck YOUR healer? How would the other Phalanx and Hunt members have responded? I’m sure anyone with any imagination whatsoever does not need me to continue my line of questioning.

When we fight and kill and die for a living, we CANNOT turn on each other, ESPECIALLY when there are outside forces threatening, ESPECIALLY a belted knight who is beholden to the Measure of the Rose, no matter what her intentions might have been afterward.

Sun-Li Yin
 
Goodman Santet,

The examples I gave in my last letter were meant as only that, as examples and precedent for how the law has previously been applied. Our laws are not writ in such minutia as the cover all the possible circumstances under which some action might occur. The laws against the Assault or Battery of a citizen race do not distinguish between the tool used to carry out said attack (save in the case of necromancy of course). Likewise, the law does not distinguish between what tools one might use to defend oneself from attack (again, save in the case of necromancy, which is always illegal). In a similar vein, the law itself does not recognize if the day is early or late, if there has been heavy battle or not. Rather, these are circumstances that an accused, or accuser, might bring up at trial to establish the context under which an alleged crime took place, and which most Lords and Squires would take into consideration when they render their judgment of guilt or innocence, and of what punishment is appropriate for those deemed guilty.

The strictures and legal proceedings for High Crimes are consistent through all Bastions of the Harvest Kingdom as I know them. However Justicars, being recognized as the sovereign rulers of their Bastions, maintain the right to determine how Common Crimes and Low Crimes will be defined and punished within their realms. Most have chosen to adhere to the same standards, and the laws as they are posted in the Hollow represent how they are defined and applied in most of the Bastions that I know of. The law of the Hollow Bastion, as I know it anyway, does not restrict the means one may use to defend oneself from harm, except as previously stated of course. This might well be different in another Bastion, and hence, whenever traveling across our circles, it is always best to check with a local lord for any local amendments to Crimes and Low Crimes. If you are outside of the Bastions altogether, out in the Deadlands, the ranging Heirophan are a recognized authority.

One area in which our law is quite explicit is in who has the authority to levy judgment for the various crimes within our Kingdom. Squires, for instance, have powers of arrest, but they may only hear argument and levy judgment on Low Crimes. Crimes and High Crimes must be heard by full nobility. Also, for all Low and Common crimes, innocence is presumed and guilt must be proven. For High Crimes it is the reverse, guilt is presumed and innocence must be proven.

In the case that one feels the law was applied in error, the first recourse is the Lord Seneschals. They are charged with providing oversight of our courts and determining if the law has been misused. Such is why they are actually prohibited from hearing normal criminal trials whilst another ranking noble is available, in case the application of law is challenged. The Justicar of any Bastion may also hear grievance and overrule any legal judgment made by another in his lands. And then there is the Council of Paladins, who in concert may provide oversight of the Justicars.

It does get a bit complicated it seems, and this is far from the all of our legal system. But our law is a living thing, and it must be ever formless and fluid to grow as our lives grow, and to recognize the strange circumstances under which our world now dwells. My best advice to all is to simply act in accordance with your own honor and common sense. If that still leads to trouble, all who stand accused of a crime are entitled to consult with those trained in our law. There are many of us who study and train quite explicitly in these matters so we may better serve. Clearly there has been some matter involving Ciarah. She knows how to reach me if she wishes private counsel to pursue the matter.

In faith,
Lord Nicodemus Ravenseye
 

Air Raksa

Scholar
Sun Li Yin

In case this wasn't clear to you. You have no reason to ever speak to me. I am certainly allowed to ask legal question' of the nobility without you trying to interfere.

But since you felt the need, I feel the need to call you a cowardly lying necromantic serpent whore who is a complete disgrace to it' race.

There is nothing you can ever do or say that will change my mind or opinion about you. I hope you die painfully and without any dignity.

-Santet
 

Michiko

Adept
Santet,

I am sorry that you feel that way. As one whom I once loved as a brother it pains me to hear it put so plainly. You may ignore my questions then and I will leave them for any who may be listening to bear in mind when they cast judgment upon this matter.

Sun-Li Yin
 
Goodman Santet,

First, I would like to state that I trust this matter is quite important to you, so I don't mean to sound like I am dismissing your concerns over justice, or merely attempting to whittle them away. I will attempt to explain these matters from the perspective of my station. Lord Nicodemus' statements above, with regard to the Lord Senechals and Paladinic Council, are correct.

I have not heard both sides of this conflict. Nevertheless, based solely on the reports I’ve thus far received, this is what I suspect were the observations and reasoning:

A noble order was given by Squire Kainen that the captive Sadeen Moorians were not to be harmed. That order, according to the missives I've received, was woefully disobeyed. Please note the context of the situation.

The order was reportedly disobeyed by a healers guildmaster, which I'm told contributed to the intensity of the adventurers' reaction. In addition, the offense occurred while the adventurers of the Hollow were on the field of battle. I freely admit that our common laws do not overtly cover jurisdiction in battle, when it is outside of a Bastion, Eire or the Deadlands.

The more appropriate cannon of law that permits a noble to assume jurisdiction, in this case, has not been written into common law, but rather, within military law. Being that this was a field of combat, assumedly led, or at the very least, overseen by nobles (squires are included in this category), then said nobles are empowered by Eire military laws to command those who have willingly engaged in the battle as an ally to the Crown.

Again, context is more pertinent than place in this instance. From the reports I’ve received, I can only imagine the reasoning behind the decided legal response, and to be honest, it would have been my decision as well.

A citizen who was on the field of battle as a support reportedly took it upon himself to execute unarmed prisoners. Oracle Ciaarah reportedly responded by attempting to neutralize the citizen. The choice of spell may or may not have had something to do with the charges that were levied, though I suspect the use of death spells did color the circumstances and final judgment, since death spells do obvious kill, and ultimately lead to resurrection, if left unresolved.

Now one could argue that this was the only spell that could be used to neutralize the threat, or that those were the only adequate resources Oracle Ciaarah had at her disposal. However, neither argument needs to be particularly relevant in order to arrive at the same charges that were levied against her.

Again, context. The initial deed seems morally dubious. Without both sides of the story, Ciaarah’s response seems morally sound. However, I am told there were several individuals there who had the authority and capacity to arrest the offender. Moreover, the action to disobey a noble order on the field of battle must be summarily punished, but likewise, it is also illegal to take it upon oneself to neutralize that individual when others with the authority and capacity to do so are present, however justified it might be. Ciaarah’s response, I’m guessing, was specifically problematic in light of the fact that it could have generated further chaos to what already ran the risk of devolving into a certified nightmare.

In summary, the initial crime was deemed to be unjustified. The initial response was deemed to be, pardon the pun, overkill. As I’ve no doubt we’re all aware, maintaining order and obeying commands on the field of battle is crucial. Any action that is taken which upsets that order is critically dangerous; morally justified responses to those actions are can still add to that danger.

The point of whether or not Ciaarah did something “wrong,” in my opinion, is secondary to whether or not she did something that could have led to a brief and deadly anarchy.

All this being said, I was not there; I do not know if this is the line of reasoning that was employed. Regardless, we can look at this incident and let it bolster our respect, for the value of life, even for the wicked, for the virtue of temperance, even in the face of malice, and for the worth of humble obedience, despite our passion.

Paladin Norhelm
 
ps. I would greatly appreciate it if you refrain from calling one of my legionnaires a whore in a public forum. Many insults are offensive, but that one is of particular distaste. I am an old man, but with my title laid before you on the Bastion ground, if you address her as such again, I will challenge you to honor combat, and one of us will die. Thank you.

Jacob Norhelm
 

Air Raksa

Scholar
Paladin Norhelm

Thank you for responding. Don't worry I am used to being dismissed.

It is your land. Rule it however you want.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know the law so I don't break it.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know who is in charge of the people who apply the law, so that when they break it, I know who we can go to for help.

-Santet

PS: Your Legionnaire called my life-mate a whore to her face. It is therefore exempt from your great appreciation.

I however accept your challenge to honor combat. One of us will indeed die. Thank You Sir.
 
Unarmed captives summarily executed in direct disobedience of noble orders on the field?

It seems this was a bloody gathering that I missed. From Goodman Santet's fist letters I had imagined a relatively minor incident in which a death spell might have been used to subdue someone who was vampire charmed or under some other form of control.

If someone, perhaps one of our able squires, could send me a detailed report on this gatherings events it would be greatly appreciated.

-Nicodemus
 

Michiko

Adept
Rock,

What are you talking about?? Please tell me, I have no idea!

This is insanity!

Yin
 
Air Raksa said:
Paladin Norhelm

Thank you for responding. Don't worry I am used to being dismissed.

Not by me, I hope. On my honor, I would never intend to do so.

Air Raksa said:
It is your land. Rule it however you want.

It is not my land. Lord Justicar Crowe has taken authority in this matter.

Air Raksa said:
There is nothing wrong with wanting to know the law so I don't break it.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to know who is in charge of the people who apply the law, so that when they break it, I know who we can go to for help.

Did I imply that there was something wrong with your questions? Again, it was not my intent.

Air Raksa said:
PS: Your Legionnaire called my life-mate a whore to her face. It is therefore exempt from your great appreciation.

Well, yes, actually. I can't read things that were yelled in heated arguments at which I was not present. I might not condemn a foolish lad around friends for a wayward comment about my grand daughter. I might be willing to remove his tongue were he to write me a letter filled with such trash.

Air Raksa said:
I however accept your challenge to honor combat. One of us will indeed die. Thank You Sir.

So be it.

Jacob Norhelm
 

Air Raksa

Scholar
Sir

I have no idea what your grand-daughter has to do with this. I am pretty old too, so maybe I missed something.

If you call someone a whore, you can not then complain when you are called a whore. That is pretty simple logic.

I have a long and sorted history with that creature, it really isn't any your business. Far be it from me to tell someone that they can't MAKE something their business. I didn't ask her to reply here.

She chose to.

-Santet
 
Santet,

Be a gent for me, for a moment?

We're done here.

See you on the field,

Jacob
 

Aven

Artisan
Santet,

Please let us speak no more of this in the dreams or on tavern posts. You have asked your question and have an answer. It is time to let the topic rest here in this place.

Should anyone have questions about my decisions or actions please feel free to contact me privately.

- Ciaarah
Oracle of the Hierophan
Knight of the Kingdom of Arandin in the lands of Moria
 

Redcloud

Scholar
I know that I truly have nothing to do with the majority of this discussion. However I do have to comment over the oddness that someone takes more offence to being called a whore than being called a necromancer.

Redcloud.
 

RiddickDale

Knight
Redcloud said:
I know that I truly have nothing to do with the majority of this discussion. However I do have to comment over the oddness that someone takes more offence to being called a whore than being called a necromancer.

Redcloud.

No. No you didn't actually.

Riddick
 
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