[.11] Lets talk about Counteract

Tantarus

Tantarus

Virtuoso
Counteract – 2 XP (Rogue), 10 XP Stealth Skills per purchase, Daily - Some characters have honed their skills to the point that they can avoid nearly any attack which is returned to them. This Smart Guard defensive skill allows a character to call "Counteract" against any "Return" defense used against them (such as “Bane” or “Reflect”). It may be used once per Logistics period per purchase.

This skill seems pretty underwhelming in general because of the narrowness of what you can use it on. You cant even use it on a riposte. Leaving only Bane and Reflect. Reflect not being relevant much to a rogue even.

It is pretty lackluster for 2 build vs stuff fighter gets like resolute for instance.
 
Perhaps this is a good place to have trap avoidance? Take it out of formal and make it a rogue skill. And cost build.
 
The dude who has a ton of Retributions feels that Counteract is underwhelming.

I actually think that Counteract is perfectly balanced. It’s a weak skill, sure, but not useless. I think it has its place. Not every skill should be amazing.
 
I can use counteracts to retribution.... Perfectly balanced against what? Resolute is the same build for a fighter and has far greater functionality. The skill is far too niche imo. Changing it to a trap avoidance or adding some other functionality feels like it would be alot more balanced.
 
I took three counteracts, and five retributions during my playtest. I never once got an opportunity to use any of my counteracts, as an adept with 4 reflect spells in memory and 5 retributions.

I agree that it feels underwhelming, but I can't think of any good replacements for it. Trap avoidance feels too powerful as it stands, and moving it to a purchased skill would make it too easy to access.
 
Tayl said:
I agree that it feels underwhelming, but I can't think of any good replacements for it. Trap avoidance feels too powerful as it stands, and moving it to a purchased skill would make it too easy to access.
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Any easier then just getting an LCO magic item? At least this costs build and is class based. And still pretty niche, mileage will vary from chapter to chapter.
 
I think there enough discussion about trap avoidance it should go in its own thread (I think there is one already).

As for counteract, I like it. 2 points for what could be a free defense. I probably wouldn’t take more than one or two but I like it. It could use a slight buff tho. Or..I'd rather see more skills like this added at cheap costs. Fighter especially I think needs a few more 1-2 point skills to round out their choices. Scholars probably do as well.
 
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I would be cool with Counteract acting as a Guard vs Return for an ally within weapon range. It’s like a trickster guardian skill.

Edit: Corrected to indicate single ally..not some weird AOE Guard.
 
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And/or guard vs Voice.
 
I think it is pretty obvious that this was designed when Riposte was a return skill and simply doesn't maintain its value now that it no longer is. That is a shame, too, because I think it was cool, if niche, skill when first introduced.

My first instinct on how to once again make it a worthwhile skill is to actually improve Reflect and Bane. Add a line to those skills that they ignore all defenses (active and passive) when they activate, other than Counteract. I don't mind improving Bane (because it is extremely costly to get access to and is type specific) or Reflect (because there is a LOT of good competition at 8th level), especially because the improvement would make Counteract a skill worth taking. The option to protect friends (similar to Parry or Intercept) isn't bad either.

-MS
 
And how many build are you working with?
 
You're from rituals. >:|

(Oops, serves me right for jumping into the bottom of a thread. Still kind of a similar amassed resources question, where hell yeah it's gonna seem cheap to someone who has a zillion invalidated Expanded Enchantment items to swap out, but having those available is not going to be a given.)
 
Sure, but my point is that banes are not going to be rare because retribution is a good ritual sink for any class. Therefore Bane should not be buffed.
 
Separate discussion but I think retribution needs to be limited at this moment. It's too good imo and I think I put that in my feedback.
 
To be honest, I had something like 5 Retributions at our Playtest and I used, like, 1.

I didn’t get hit by any big weapon blows, and the only thing that was throwing spells in my vicinity was Undead...throwing Necromancy. I got hit by some Weapon Strike Binds, but they were thrown by things immune to Binding.

That being said, I suspect there’d be events where I could use them all, so I would be cool with it being removed.

I’m also pretty anti-Return.
 
I had like 2 retributions, and used them both logistics cycles. Decided that in the future, I might as well have one for every defense I use and a few counteracts in case they get reflected back to me. That just seems a bit too good.
 
I don't accept the ritual argument as presented.

The playtest allows you to choose any rituals you want, but that doesn't reflect the actual game. You can't be certain you will have access to any given ritual on a regular basis (especially if you aren't a caster). First there is the randomness of what scrolls go out and whether you or your team gets access to them. Then there is the actual casting of the ritual, which isn't always successful. Heck, even the need for components can sometimes interfere.

I won't try to speak for your game, but in the game I play in, many characters have limited access to rituals and almost nobody can pick and choose with the same access level as they have for skills. I am certain for the playtests that everyone is maxxing out Retribution. But that simply won't reflect real games, except possibly for the players who are absolutely swimming in dragon stamps.

-MS
 
Mike, we're going to be converting over an absurd number of items as I understand the plan. Nobody is going to want for access to rituals they desire any time soon with the amount of stuff that's going away that will be reworked into whatever they need.
 
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