Limiting the purchase of skills

[Gilwing]

So with a lot of talk of build caps and "power creep" as well as the, I can do everything people, what would people think of a system where skills are limited to your class. If we truly want people to play together as a team then why not limit the skills you can purchase. For example right now anyone can purchase a dodge, weather you want to spend the build is a different sorry (right Riddick ).
I feel that the down side would be that we would get a lot if stem lined characters but we won't have the I can do it all characters and would have to rely on others.

Thoughts?

 

[Gunnar]

Hey Dave,
I see the benefits of what you are talking about, but we would have to figure out something for the cross-classes, as it would make them significantly more powerful with the type of system design we have at present.

What would you suggest to that end?

-Ali

 

[Tantarus]

I feel like magic items lead more to the "I can do it all" Characters then actual build spread out. Honestly being a templar, I would argue being a hybrid class makes you much weaker then pure classes of the same level.

 

[MaxIrons]

Given the trade off of cost between a Scholar purchasing a Spell vs a Fighter, I think the system does this effectively already. Where it becomes muddy is when access to those abilities is granted without the cost trade-off via magic items.

 

[norman b]

I feel like magic items lead more to the "I can do it all" Characters then actual build spread out. Honestly being a templar, I would argue being a hybrid class makes you much weaker then pure classes of the same level.

Sure, if you look at one side or the other. But if you look at a scholar picking up fighter skills or vice versa (sans hybrid classes), it is a lot of build. A lot more than if you were to add back in the hybrid classes and slide to them. Example, 4 column/4 prof 1 hand edge fighter, scholar, templar. (no misc skills, human) you are looking at Fighter: 379 build, Scholar: 257 build, Templar: 186 build. The templar gets the same stuff 7 levels before the scholar and nearly 20 levels before the fighter... Hybrid classes are weaksauce at low levels but much better blending at higher levels.

Anyway, on the topic, limiting other class builds does hurt hybrids, unless they have unlimited. In which case, adepts still are the jack of all trades class.

 

[Draven]

I dislike the idea. While I believe the system should "encourage" focused characters with a build cap, I don't feel that it provides an organic immersion by telling the fighter that he can't be academic, or telling the wizard that he can't learn how to properly use a shield. The world shouldn't define us by our classes (even if the system behind the world does so). Cross-class skills helps us to add color to our characters. Want to play a paranoid fighter? Having Legerdemain can help you with that roleplay. Want to be a healer with some alchemical mad science? You can do that.

So, eh, a system that restricted purchases? That's no fun.

 

[jpariury]

I feel like magic items lead more to the "I can do it all" Characters then actual build spread out.

Sure, magic items do it faster, but build will do it eventually anyways. I know of at least one "I can do it all" character in the PNW.

Ideally, I'd like to see a system where base skills are achievable by any class, but "prestige skills" were bound by it. Like, maybe templars get to Spell Strike their spells. Maybe rogues get to call perform no game actions or activations but call no effect to everything while "in shadows". Maybe fighters swing their slays for Massive. Maybe artisans produce double production. Don't bog yourself on the specifics here - the idea is that class should have value.

 

[MaxIrons]

Build will do it eventually, but without the magic items to shore things up, a jack of all trades will never be as good as someone who is focused in any given area at the same build cost. They'll never hit as hard or PTD as often as Fighters, Dodge as often as Rogues, or have as many Spells as a Scholar with equal time input into their character. This is actually why I'm against magic items requiring the skill to use instead of fixing them to never replicate build abilities outright. It just changes what the optimal build to use magic items is. Instead of being a Scout with a butt-load of spells in your back pocket, or Templar with pocket Dodges, you get into each area just enough to get access to all those magic items.

 

[Gilwing]

Hey Dave,
I see the benefits of what you are talking about, but we would have to figure out something for the cross-classes, as it would make them significantly more powerful with the type of system design we have at present.

What would you suggest to that end?

-Ali

The split classes could have access to both classes (they are part of each) but at raised costs, like now or they could have their own skills entirely like jp mentioned. I didn't really have anything in mind. I was just noticing a "trend".

 

[Gilwing]

I dislike the idea. While I believe the system should "encourage" focused characters with a build cap, I don't feel that it provides an organic immersion by telling the fighter that he can't be academic, or telling the wizard that he can't learn how to properly use a shield. The world shouldn't define us by our classes (even if the system behind the world does so). Cross-class skills helps us to add color to our characters. Want to play a paranoid fighter? Having Legerdemain can help you with that roleplay. Want to be a healer with some alchemical mad science? You can do that.

So, eh, a system that restricted purchases? That's no fun.

But to me the current system has that set for races. The no such thing as the stone elf that shows emotion or the high ogre that likes necro. So y can't that be the same for the fighter that is not academic? U want that be a templar or a adept.

 

[Muir]

I like it, because defined class roles really leans towards the stated system design goal of needing all the classes to cover all the bases in game. I do agree with folks that the biggest issue here is that the current magic item stituation makes it far, far too easy to have everything you need from other classes in your pocket as opposed to bringing another PC along.

 

[jpariury]

a jack of all trades will never be as good as someone who is focused in any given area at the same build cost

A JoaT doesn't need to do it better than anyone. They just need to be able to do it without anyone, which is bad for the team-focused game the writers strive for in Alliance. At the upper levels, if you make it so that class is a meaningful distinction (via class-specific skills), then it becomes impossible for anyone to be able to "do it all".