Long kitespar for UL weapons

S

Siegfried

Novice
Found a great resource online for Kitespar,

http://www.kitebuilder.com/catalog/inde ... abcdc3ef4b

They sell graphite tubing up to 80", so you could theoretically make an UL polearm if you wanted!

They sell solid fiberglass rods as well. Anyone ever try that? Is it legal? How light is it? They are much cheaper and go up to 96", so you could get a LOT of weapons out of one rod if they are usable.
 
There's no fiberglass rods on that website that are thick enough to be legal. The thickest is 1/4 inch. You want 1/2 inch minimum, and many people prefer the 3/4 inch. Look at the link on the fiberglass rods. The thicker stuff (1/8 inch) is what you can get in 96" lengths. Looks like you can get the 1/4 inch that long as well. Look at the bulk link for the 200 foot long piece. It comes in a 25" diameter coil. That's way, way, way too bendy to make a weapon out of.

The RET50575 .505" OD Epoxy is generally what you're looking for for the 1/2 inch, and the RET745 .745" Epoxy is the good 3/4 inch stuff. Yes, it's like $12 for a piece, but they're 75" and 65" long, plenty long enough for a max polearm. The 80" graphite tubing they list on that site is way, way, way too thin (~5/32 inch). The graphite tubing is way more expensive per foot then the Fiberglass (epoxy) tubes.

Go fiberglass tube.
~Matt,
Weapon guy,
Marshal
 
The thicker stuff (1/8 inch) is what you can get in 96" lengths. Looks like you can get the 1/4 inch that long as well. Look at the bulk link for the 200 foot long piece. It comes in a 25" diameter coil. That's way, way, way too bendy to make a weapon out of.
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True. However, if you would bundle 2-4 rods together you should be able to get away from it being too bendy. If I did that with the fiberglass, and it was not bendy at all, would that pass then? I know only certain materials are passable, bamboo (in some chapters) and aluminum I know are illegal to use. Cost is less of an issue for me. Been using old graphite golf club shafts, but none come close to the length I need for my next project.

I like the idea of making UL weapons for three reasons.

First, they are much easier to use. No one really wants to be lugging a heavy weapon all day, let alone swinging it in huge wave battles!
Second, I've seen PVC weapons that were bendy as well. While we could use a bundling method to make the weapon more rigid, who wants to use multiple pieces of PVC?
Third, it takes less force to swing a UL. Less force behind the swing, less of a possibility of hurting another player. I don't like seeing an NPC get hurt, we have too few so as it is!
 
Don't use multiple pieces of material for your core. I've never seen that work out with other materials, and don't have any reason to believe that the fiberglass would work any better. I'd fail the weapon for the core in a safety check, it's just not worth the risk.

I use a lot of golf clubs now-a-days too, but for spears/2handers/polearms I use the .745 Epoxy stuff (RET745 on that website). It's 65" long, which means it's already cut to max size for Polearms, is within an 1" of max for Staves (which you could make up pretty easily), and you'll still have to cut it for anything else (see your weapon chart, P.80). For anything this long I definately suggest the .745" over the .505". It's still ultra-light and plenty strong. I've got a two hander made with the stuff that's lasted me for about 6 years and the core hasn't shown any signs of wear yet.

~Matt
 
Don't use multiple pieces of material for your core. I've never seen that work out with other materials, and don't have any reason to believe that the fiberglass would work any better. I'd fail the weapon for the core in a safety check, it's just not worth the risk.

I use a lot of golf clubs now-a-days too, but for spears/2handers/polearms I use the .745 Epoxy stuff (RET745 on that website). It's 65" long, which means it's already cut to max size for Polearms, is within an 1" of max for Staves (which you could make up pretty easily), and you'll still have to cut it for anything else (see your weapon chart, P.80). For anything this long I definately suggest the .745" over the .505". It's still ultra-light and plenty strong. I've got a two hander made with the stuff that's lasted me for about 6 years and the core hasn't shown any signs of wear yet.
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Thanks, Matt, for all your help. Now I know exactly what I need to do! What you suggested is less than a third of a pound before I will need to cut it down, so it should work perfectly. PVC pipe is fine for a polearm since you're going to be using two hands to wield it, giving you more support, but for a spear the PVC tends to be a bit too heavy and awkward to use even if using a counterbalance for it.
 
Siegfried said:
I like the idea of making UL weapons for three reasons.

First, they are much easier to use. No one really wants to be lugging a heavy weapon all day, let alone swinging it in huge wave battles!
Second, I've seen PVC weapons that were bendy as well. While we could use a bundling method to make the weapon more rigid, who wants to use multiple pieces of PVC?
Third, it takes less force to swing a UL. Less force behind the swing, less of a possibility of hurting another player. I don't like seeing an NPC get hurt, we have too few so as it is!
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I would be remiss if I didn't respond to the above with 'Harden up'. :D Seriously, though, even the loggiest of PVC weapons weighs less than two pounds.

I do like UL cores for my polearms, but that's mostly a matter of reducing whip since I tend towards max-lengths with fairly large heads.
 
Siegfried said:
Don't use multiple pieces of material for your core. I've never seen that work out with other materials, and don't have any reason to believe that the fiberglass would work any better. I'd fail the weapon for the core in a safety check, it's just not worth the risk.

I use a lot of golf clubs now-a-days too, but for spears/2handers/polearms I use the .745 Epoxy stuff (RET745 on that website). It's 65" long, which means it's already cut to max size for Polearms, is within an 1" of max for Staves (which you could make up pretty easily), and you'll still have to cut it for anything else (see your weapon chart, P.80). For anything this long I definately suggest the .745" over the .505". It's still ultra-light and plenty strong. I've got a two hander made with the stuff that's lasted me for about 6 years and the core hasn't shown any signs of wear yet.
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Thanks, Matt, for all your help. Now I know exactly what I need to do! What you suggested is less than a third of a pound before I will need to cut it down, so it should work perfectly. PVC pipe is fine for a polearm since you're going to be using two hands to wield it, giving you more support, but for a spear the PVC tends to be a bit too heavy and awkward to use even if using a counterbalance for it.
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I have to make a quick comment here. Unless you are making a pvc polearm out of 1 inch pvc (which is a LOG) you are not going to be able to make a pvc polearm that should pass inspection. It is not possible to make a pvc polearm that is 3/4 inch od that is not too whippy at max length. Unfortunately that's just the reality of the material with standard pvc. Maybe you'd be able to find some special thick wall pvc, but once again LOG. I'd have to agree that really the .745 graphite material is the best for 2 handers and polearms.

As for composite core weapons, that is an interesting topic for discussion and don't completely rule them, out. But certainly if the place your playing is not willing to even consider that they "could" be safe, then obviously go with that. My personal opinion on the matter is that if you do the job right you can make composite core weapons (especially bows) perfectly as safe as single core weapons with the right adhesives. But obviously weapons are inherently very LCO. The only things that are pretty universally safe are the graphite and pvc cored weapons. Just my two cents.
 
Though that's also not completely true. I think that there are two chapters in the midwest that don't allow UL cores. You might be forced to build a log, based on your geography. I forgot to mention that, since I don't know where you are.
There are some composite core weapons that I think could be safe (the aforementioned bow seemed fine), but it's a chapter by chapter call. The particular potential core discussed above (several pieces of fiberglass rod) I don't think can be safe. Twisting the pieces together will reduce the flexability, but each strand can be bent into a 2 foot diameter circle, so I just don't see it happening.
 
yea, I would agree with your assessment obcidian in this particular, I just wanted to say that "some" composite cores can be safe and can get allowed. ;)

Although the ironic thing, is that after spending many hours and hours perfecting composite bows I like I've gone back to using a thick wall type of pvc for a longbow because the weight is actually better, only on that weapon because bows are pure blocking. Otherwise I can't get behind extra weight in weapons you'll actually swing...
 
Now I'm going to have to rebuild the loggiest possible sword. Maybe the falchion. Just so I can demonstrate to the UL crowd that lighter isn't always better. :lol:
 
...

Its not a demonstration matter, its the theory on which the rules work, that the faster opponent wins. Plus ultra light weapons even the playing field because players that aren't as OOG physically strong can still spin them around for hours and hours while with heavier weapons some folks would get worn down. And then there is the fact that if I'm going to get accidentally smacked in the face or junk as we all do from time to time... I'd rather it was with an ultra light, which by definition can't get the same force of momentum behind it...

I mean if you can explain how those 3 main points are not relevant, more power to ya, and yes I did just open this can of worms, cause I am pretty convinced for the time being.
 
Dreamingfurther said:
...

Its not a demonstration matter, its the theory on which the rules work, that the faster opponent wins. Plus ultra light weapons even the playing field because players that aren't as OOG physically strong can still spin them around for hours and hours while with heavier weapons some folks would get worn down. And then there is the fact that if I'm going to get accidentally smacked in the face or junk as we all do from time to time... I'd rather it was with an ultra light, which by definition can't get the same force of momentum behind it...

I mean if you can explain how those 3 main points are not relevant, more power to ya, and yes I did just open this can of worms, cause I am pretty convinced for the time being.
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Actually, faster isn't really the be-all and end-all, although the combat system is heavily slanted towards it. Any idiot can swing pipe around at high speed. Shot placement is the key. It doesn't matter how fast you can swing if you can't get a legal target.

Getting worn down is a simple matter of practice. Anyone is going to tire easily when doing an activity their body is unfamiliar with over an extended amount of time. But the more time a player spends on the game, the more their body will adapt to swinging a light object at things. There are people out there, like one of my good friends, who use ultralights due to wrist injuries that make heavier weapons painful. However, if one is in good enough health to run around in the woods all weekend, one should have little to fear.

As far as getting hit by accident goes, the weight difference between the two types of weapons is literally ounces. Unless someone is swinging way too hard, your chance of injury is utterly negligible even on a swing that goes into a non-legal target. Running into a branch is both more common and more likely to hurt you. That said, the fighting style encouraged by the ultralight just aggravates your last worry. The more that speed becomes the focus, the less controlled the fighting is, and the more likely that someone is using too much force to get their swings up to speed and/or not pulling their blows properly.
 
Wraith said:
Now I'm going to have to rebuild the loggiest possible sword.
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And it probably wouldn't pass safety. I've failed weapons because they were too heavy before. If it's got too much umph, it's no good. 9 times out of 10 a UL weapon is better then one that's not. Put either in the hands of an unsafe fighter and you're going to have problems, but hands down I know which one I'd rather get baseball-swung in the head with.

More often then not, people who are blowing the 'my heavy pvc weapons are better then your ultralight weapons' trumpet fit into two catagories: people who are bitter about getting beat down by people using UL weapons at a game, and people who have only been to one or two Alliance games who came from a different game where technology hasn't caught up to the level that we're playing at (and of course there are plenty of folk who are in both groups). Now, we're by no means at the top of the tech curve, there are other games with better weapons then we use, but we're limited by the national safety standards, and they haven't really changed since the game began. Also keep in mind that you can swing a heavy weapon in one or two chapters every weekend for a year to try and 'demostrate your point,' but 90% of the people here will never see it happen, being a national game and all. I think you're making the mistake of assuming that the people you're talking to don't use or haven't used heavy weapons. It's just not true. Nearly everyone has used a PVC weapon or started playing with them. People try out UL weapons and then make the switch to them for a reason, and quite a large portion of the game has done just that.
You're trying to sell used cars to people with new cars.
 
So to summarize your points:
Wraith said:
(...)Shot placement is the key. It doesn't matter how fast you can swing if you can't get a legal target.
(...)Getting worn down is a simple matter of practice.
(...)As far as getting hit by accident goes, the weight difference between the two types of weapons is literally ounces. (...) The more that speed becomes the focus, the less controlled the fighting is, and the more likely that someone is using too much force to get their swings up to speed and/or not pulling their blows properly.
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The first two don't address how heavy weaposn are better then light ones in any way, you discuss practice and skill, which are irrelivent to your argument. Only your third responce in any way addresses the topic.

Your third point assumes that faster fighters are less safe, a claim which is unsupported and in my experience, completely unfounded. Once again, your arguement seems to stem from your lack of experience with this game and it's players rather then a position that you can support with facts or relavant experience.
 
Obcidian, I enjoy the way you're talking down to me as if I were some newbie, but as you point out that is the result of a national game. People don't know each other in person, and hence make assumptions. I'd like to think you might know better, after all, I was out and played your home chapter a couple years ago.

Let me clarify before we get into a flamewar based on poor assumptions. I'm not really worried about demonstrating any sort of 'superiority' of a heavy weapon, because there really isn't much of one outside of having a bit more mass to help avoid weak parries without having to exert a lot of force. I'm not particularly motivated by being beaten down, as I'm good enough with a stick to avoid getting slaughtered by most things who don't have a bigger card than I do, and that's just the way the game works.

It seems to me that more and more people switch to ultralight weapons because they give a tangible out of game advantage in a game whose tagline is 'be all you can't be', and whose ruleset insists that the numbers on the card should be the main factor in the ability of the character in combat. Are they nice? Sure. I use one from time to time, and as I've noted often enough my favorite polearm is made on an UL core. At the same time, the greater part of the safety violations that I have ever seen at game have been the result of the same hyper-aggressive, competition motivated style of fighting that leads people to insist that they will not use anything but UL weapons. I can't vouch for it personally, but hearsay has been that there have been multiple players who would not play in the Midwest because many of the chapters here at the time did not allow UL weapons, and they were unwilling to give up the advantage. This is the same sort of attitude towards manipulating the letter of the rules that generates fighting styles specifically designed to use the head as a device to protect the shoulders. The weapons are clearly not the problem, but a symptom of an attitude that I get annoyed with.

I can't really back that up with a batch of wikipedia links in proper internet argument style, so you'll have to survive on my observations. :D
 
I don't particularly have any interest in engaging in any kind of flame war. In fact, I would have let the entire thing go by unresponded to had you not made several comments on this thread and on others that were along the lines of "Harden up." It's not that you made the comment once, and tacked on the smiley face, it's that you've made it several times. You've followed up those short posts with other one liners that simply aggravate the situation. Neither commentary added to the conversation, you came to the table with no support, and you skirted the issue buy making claims that a particular (your own) fighting style is superior. The persistent disrespectful undertones have been agitating me.

I'll freely admit that I won't play in a chapter that doesn't allow ultralight weapons, but it's not because of the lack of advantage. There is, in fact, very little 'advantage' gained in my home chapter by using ultralight weapons because nearly everyone (including the NPCs) has them. The only reason I've heard thusfar for disallowing them in some chapters is a safety concern that they've broken in the cold. This reason is bogus. I know for a fact that there is a group in Alaska using our construction rules and ultralight weapons right now, and they do not have that problem. I'm perfectly willing to accept that someone in the midwest has seen a UL weapon break in the cold, but that is almost certainly a poor construction issue (whether it was the quality of the builder or of the materials, I don't know). The fact is that a chapter that is wholesale disallowing ultralight weapons just isn't playing the same game that I'm used to playing. I wouldn't play in a chapter that disallowed leather armor or dwarves, either.

I've got carpal tunnel pretty badly in both wrists, so UL weapons are definitely a boon to me, but in reality, I'd still play if UL weapons were banned from the game completely (as bad a move as I think that would be). It's really not an issue of gaining advantage or not (especially when everyone has them), it's comfort of play. Whether it's wrist issues or stamina concerns or safer weapons or just lugging around a heavier weapon all weekend, I think overall comfort has more to do with the shift to ultralights.

the greater part of the safety violations that I have ever seen at game have been the result of the same hyper-aggressive, competition motivated style of fighting that leads people to insist that they will not use anything but UL weapons. (...) This is the same sort of attitude towards manipulating the letter of the rules that generates fighting styles specifically designed to use the head as a device to protect the shoulders. The weapons are clearly not the problem, but a symptom of an attitude that I get annoyed with.
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I don't experience this phenomena, but based on stories I've heard from folks who have traveled to more chapters then myself, I don't doubt it exists. It appears that we agree that this is purely a player problem though, not an equipment one. I think that these dangerous players are in the minority of those that use ultralights and espouse their virtues.
 
As far as fighting style goes, there are certainly some fighters out there that use UL cores and kite tape and are out to hit as quickly as possible, and perhaps are rather unsafe. There are also a lot of fighters that use UL cores and are very safe fighters and do look for where to hit and prefer a light fast weapon for that. For me I kinda view that as a finesse fighter rather than a strength fighter. Each core I feel has it's own advantages for blocking and striking, and I don't think an UL core gives fighters an overt game breaking advantage. A lot still rests on the skill of the fighter, but still in my opinion within the confines of the "be all you can't be" slogan or as close to it as the system can provide. And certainly UL cores let people with poor wrists or other medical conditions such as shoulder injuries play at closer to the speed they like, or with much less pain. I don't feel that a certain core should be discounted because of the way a person fights. That person should be talked to about their style of fighting and I trust my rules marshals and safety people to do so. If I feel someone I'm fighting against is out of control or fighting "too fast" for me to feel safe I'll just tell them and I've never had a problem from the NPC's I've talked to about it. As far as PC's go, I've only ever had a problem with one fighter being too fast, aggressive and unsafe and they were addressed by the marshals on site. I don't see this as being an overall trend of UL weapons fighters being fast and unsafe, but that's just my experience.

Looking at the argument from the core weight issue, not the fighting style issue, I use a PVC cored 2h sword, primarily because I wanted a curve to it which you can achieve with PVC but not kite spar. Conveniently enough it took all the whip (there was little to begin with this was a solid thicker walled PVC) out of the weapon as well. I had too many instances of my cores breaking in my 2H mainly because someone stepped on it or due to some other non combat related injury. The longer the weapon the more likely it is to get caught up in something or crushed if people aren't being careful. I've found that with all weapons it really comes down to the skill of the maker. With the style of curve in my sword I moved the fulcrum point further back and it feels lighter than it should, but with any 2H weapon I'm careful not to torque it too much and hurt someone. Comparing PVC/UL cores with a 2H as the example instead of a 1H is a bit like apples and oranges, but there is one thing I have noticed that puts me more in favor of the UL cores in the chapters near me. It really has little to do with the core. Generally, more skilled weapons crafters use UL cores while less experienced ones make PVC cores. The less experienced weapons makers are more likely to make a very heavy weapon that does indeed hurt more when you are hit by it. I've been hit pretty hard a few times in the face/head area by some of these less than skillfully made weapons and it's never been enough to make me want to call a hold but it definitely gives me a moment of pause. So in my case, I'm much happier to see and be hit by UL weapons than PVC simply because they tend to be better crafted. Yes, I said tend to be. Certainly there are very good PVC core foamsmiths as well. :)
 
I do come across a bit poorly sometimes, sorry about that. Sarcasm and self-deprecating humor don't come across well in text. :) As far as I'm aware, I don't think any of the chapters are disallowing ULs outright anymore.

obcidian_bandit said:
I don't experience this phenomena, but based on stories I've heard from folks who have traveled to more chapters then myself, I don't doubt it exists. It appears that we agree that this is purely a player problem though, not an equipment one. I think that these dangerous players are in the minority of those that use ultralights and espouse their virtues.
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Too right. My other concern is that not everyone has access to / can afford to use UL materials in all their weapons, and as such it can turn into a matter of 'I can afford to spend more money, hence I win at Alliance', which is part of what I utterly detest about the way NERO does business. As much as I argue about the armor rules, the bit that requires actual heavy metal for the high-point stuff prevents a massive advantage to those who can afford things like titanium chainmaile, and that's all to the good. I suppose most of the things that make me twitch are simply the result of a possibly misdirected idea that all of us, as players, should have a roughly equal playing field, differentiated by the numbers on our cards more than what gear we can afford to play with.
 
Wraith, while I understand the sentiment behind the feeling that we should all have a roughly equitable playing field except for the numbers on our cards, that just doesn't really make any reasonable sense. For example someone who puts tons of time into their gear and costume, not even just money and has lots of potion holders, pouches, and weapon holsters is going to "have a bonus" of those who don't chose to spend as much time preparing that kind of stuff.

Also keep in mind that our game basically lives off volunteer work. If those volunteers didn't get an "advantage" or compensation for their work I think our whole system would pretty much break down. The bottom line is that OOG effort and work put into the game always has and will make a big difference as to where people come in at on the playing field level. And the blatant truth is that if someone has the money to donate $1000 dollars or some other large sum to the game its gonna benefit more people than just them. Sure it benefits them the most, but I enjoy seeing folks with awesome armor or costumes even if I know that I couldn't afford it because it adds to the IG flavor and authenticity.

I duno, I'm feeling a little bit lost in what I'm trying to drive at here, but I guess I'm saying while it might be nice in some ways if everything was even before stat cards are added that's just a reality that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a game like Alliance which literally need 100's of hours of work to make really shine. As far as it goes Alliance is pretty good about containing the "buy a character" attitude anyways. But if you have lots of money OOG and spend the time OOG you'll have more of an advantage...
 
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