[.11] Making Crafters more versatile

[Lurin]

First off to start out, yes I understand that artisans are seem as the 'non-combat' option, and while this holds true there are times even artisans take the field.

One of the roughest things about being a crafter in our game is the lack of options when your crafting is not needed, this is helped by flexible crafting but not solved.

My suggested solution? Personal supplies, the basic premise is a crafter can make a 5 day version of any crafted item that only they can use and lasts 5 days with all usual rep requirements. Crafting these items expends skill (PP) but costs 1 copper less per production point (before 20% Journeyman discount) as they use easy to find cheap ingredients that lead an inferior product, hence why only they should apply it as there is obvious danger in such.

This allows both for great plot (I burn my production to make 5 enslavement antidotes to help those poor farmers but it doesn't cost me 2 gold, although I am out of luck if I need more alchemy) Anything else I make will be in my second batch temporary or not.

It should be tied to the player to prevent abuse and confusion from the extra tags (and much easier to track in that case) I did some basic math, although people can check me, and this offers a far inferior return on compared to say Channeling, but does add flexibility to the game.

That's the basic premise, thoughts?

 

[Muir]

I point out that this would be a large power-per-point increase for anyone who dipped into Alchemy as an archer. Cheap vorpals all day, and the same goes for any other coin-fed cross class. It'd make my traps feel a lot more useful, though.

Mind you, I'm not sure how common those are outside of a couple people I know. I don't dislike it, but it does add a fair amount of paperwork.

 

[Ken]

A possible source for inspiration here is the Alchemist class from Pathfinder. The basic premise is at least similar to the above idea, in that it involves temporary items that mechanically function more like daily skills than anything you could sell. I mostly wouldn't make it involve gold expenditure, though. Maybe a set of skills that basically turns unspent PP into something like channeling or spell preparation? Wrote up some concept skills...

Improvised Crafting Skills Overview
Improvised Crafting skills allow a character to spend Production Points in ways that produce a temporary benefit rather than a permanent item. Some require a special kit, which is similar in purpose to a wand or relic, costs 2 silver, and must measure at least LxWxH. Kits should include a list of production item costs and a tag indicating current PP allocated. Production Points must be allocated to kits or effects to be used - this can be done at logistics just like any crafting - but this does not cost any coin. Only PP from your initial daily batch may be allocated in this way.

Field Distillation (Alchemy)
You can allocate a number of PP to a chosen portable chemistry set, which last for the duration of the logistics period. At any time, you may spend the usual amount of PP and 1 minute using this chemistry set as a focus activity to produce a dose of any elixir in your recipe book (which must be on your person or in the kit), which will not have a tag but must otherwise be appropriately represented. This elixir is unstable and will only retain its potency as long as you maintain focus, though its effect and duration once administered is unchanged. Only you can handle and administer the elixir.

Volatile Globes (Alchemy)
You can allocate a number of PP to prepare a set of alchemical globes at the usual PP cost. You receive no tags for these globes - instead, they work like prepared spells. Mark these on your battle board when crafting them at logistics, then mark them off as they are used. Only you can handle these globes - they are inert for anyone else. If your globe packets are stolen, the thief receives real globes first before any volatile globes are lost, but any volatile globes lost in this manner must be marked off as used. They will not be functional if retrieved.

Temporary Repair (Blacksmith)
You can allocate a number of PP to a chosen portable smithing kit, which last for the duration of the logistics period. At any time, you may temporarily repair a weapon or set of armor that has been shattered during this logistics period by spending the same amount of PP as it would normally take to create the base item (not counting silvering or other enhancements) and focusing on the task for 1 minute. An item with no PP cost but that can be strengthened such as a wand can be repaired in this way for 20 PP. To indicate the item has been repaired, make a large R mark across the tag. An item can only be temporarily repaired in this way once. Temporarily repaired items return to their shattered state at the end of the current or next encounter (similar to a weapon in the process of being destroyed by Acid Skin), or at the end of the logistics period if there are no further encounters. The focus time needed to perform temporary repairs can be modified by any skill or effect that reduces the time needed for Blacksmith Refitting.

Unstable Prototypes (Create Trap)
(Same as Volatile Globes for trap globes)

Leyline Skimming (Create Potion)
(Same as Field Distillation for potions)

Recycle Scroll (Create Scroll)
You can allocate a number of PP to a chosen portable calligraphy kit, which last for the duration of the logistics period. At any time, you may spend the appropriate number of PP and 1 minute of focus to eke one last use out of a previously-used battle magic scroll. The spell must either be one you currently have prepared or that you currently have available to reference in a spellbook. Draw an R mark across the tag - a scroll may only be recycled once. Only scrolls used during this logistics period may be recycled in this manner and the recycled scroll expires at the end of the logistics period, but they may be used by anyone who could normally read them until then.

 

[Lurin]

While I like the spit-balling, I really don't think this close to a new rule set we'll see a complicated packet make it through so I'm trying to keep it simple to implement.

As to the power creep I looked at it, Alchemy for example as Muir indicated

Alchemy is 3 per purchase, allowing for 2 Light Vorpals at +2, coating 8 arrows, for 16 damage, by using the weekend version, you lose the ability to 'save up' production, I would argue, that in general, point for point alchemy as a craft pales in comparison to actual rogue or fighter skills, although it might become the 'best' option for high enough level archers when it's 10 crit attacks/back attacks per prof/backstab.

The biggest damage I could find was a stone elf scroll maker gaining 10 damage (once) per 2 Build, with a workshop, that seems relatively in line with a spell column, probably a bit behind (25 points giving 225 from a column versus 120 from the 12 ranks in scroll production for the same cost) It would be a bit more flexible but all the spell options suffer a similar diminishing of returns per build.

I'm open to finding the point for point extra value but so far the best power gaming I've been able to do still leaves the crafter lacking painfully in power, but being ahead in flexibility. I'd love for someone to break down the points to make it worse with a comparable directly class skill set.

As to paperwork, it functionally nets out, you still have to go to the crafting location as if crafting items, getting the tags (or battle board sign off) from the marshal and you are still arguably expending the same amount of production. At least when I've played a crafter I always spent my first batch of production on SOMETHING even if only to resell at a later event.

 

[Muir]

10pt Vorpal for 40pp, coats 4 arrows or bolts for +10 damage each with a workshop, which comes out to 1 damage per pp. 5pt Vorpals are even cheaper per damage at 1 damage per .75pp, but have a lower ceiling.

Since coated bolts no longer last past the weekend, there's no advantage to not using this rather than producing normally beyond the size of your personal batches, as it's a flat discount and they will only go the weekend either way. In a game where 6-8 profs will be 'a lot' for a 250 xp character, +5 or +10 damage on four shots is a significant boost.

Also, has there been a major cost change I'm missing? Because -1 copper per PP for first batch would be free...

 

[tieran]

Since coated bolts no longer last past the weekend

Wait, what?

Is that a real thing? I wasn’t able to find a mention of it in the playtest document, unless people are extending the “battle magic doesn’t last more than 5 days” to include this.

 

[Lurin]

@tieran

Yes they combined them into contact gels, and contact gels expire at end of the event.

That's the idea, production of use today items would be free. So 40 production is 8 ranks, which is 24 build times two assuming a workshop. That is 80 damage for 24 build that has to be spread over 8 separate attacks. For the same build (and copper cost I suppose) I could have 8 Crit attacks, and blow them in a number of combinations, probably a stack of 5 and a stack of 3 for easiest comparison, but I would argue that the crit attacks will produce far more damage over the same time frame. (you'd need to attack an average of 10 times with each crit attack active to be 'even' for the build cost, and you'd not be restricted to archery) The math gets much much worse on the production side when you start spending the build on slays/improved slays etc, especially considering a heavy cross bow is base 4 (I think haven't check to make sure it wasn't changed) and a bow is base 3 so you get 40 or 30 points for your 2 build, 60 or 45 for 4 build with improved slay. Since meditate is a thing you have an even greater edge by not using production. Note that none of the options above suffer from the increasing cost of profs/Backstabs to avoid running afoul of bad math.

So, yeah it's free, yeah it's way better than the existing crafting system, but I don't see how it's ever 'better' from a combat perspective (for damage or effects) except for some fringe situations (we need 200 disarms to fight the 2 magic rune weapons guy with 100 parries granted by said, no spirit linked weapons...such a cool mod by the by #SoMIShoutout)

The downside for Vorpals is you'd can't stock pile things that disappear at the end of a weekend, so I do think those tags will still be made, and crafters can get a nice boost. It does drop the cost of stacking things if you are going to blow a giant stack by making a million Vorpals it will still cost you, a little less because you'll have to burn them in that fight, but it basically boils down to one extra batches worth by restricting to a single character and I can't find a good way to abuse it (ie do more than any other more specialized combat character can't do significantly better) Until you get to a a 3 to 4 batch level which still costs some hefty coin even with the discount. But you could limit this by restricting the skill to only your first batch.

 

[Inaryn]

The Crafting Committee is definitely looking at options to improve crafting versatility and appeal. Whatever we do come up with, it's likely to be an update to 2.0. While that might seem a little disappointing to hear that an update won't likely be coming with release, we'll be able to survey the situation for crafters in the 2.0 atmosphere and react to that a bit with our brainstorming.

Keep putting up your ideas! We're watching/reading!

 

[MaxIrons]

The coatings only go away at the end of the event if they are applied. Coatings still in their containers are still good. Lost four potions this past weekend that were coating my staff at game off. My potions on my pouch were fine though.

 

[Muir]

The Crafting Committee is definitely looking at options to improve crafting versatility and appeal. Whatever we do come up with, it's likely to be an update to 2.0. While that might seem a little disappointing to hear that an update won't likely be coming with release, we'll be able to survey the situation for crafters in the 2.0 atmosphere and react to that a bit with our brainstorming.

Keep putting up your ideas! We're watching/reading!

Expect feedback once next season starts and I can get some full 2.0 events in. New system has tempted me into going big on crafting skills.

 

[Inaryn]

Looking forward to it! I have a big crafter character myself, what with 20 potion, working toward 20 scroll, and 10 alchemy.