Making Ritual Levels More Useful

Libras

Scholar
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
There is no reason that Lich should have to carry Cloak Summoned Force items to avoid getting pinned. It makes no sense.
[QQ] "I need another magic item to hose the sky caster, oh noes!!11! [/QQ] :roll:
RP sense can be made to fit; this makes perfect sense for mechanical class balance.
 
Libras said:
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
There is no reason that Lich should have to carry Cloak Summoned Force items to avoid getting pinned. It makes no sense.
[QQ] "I need another magic item to hose the sky caster, oh noes!!11! [/QQ] :roll:
RP sense can be made to fit; this makes perfect sense for mechanical class balance.
Alright, the pin not so much. But the Freeze suggestion was a Web. Web is an incredibly powerful skill and a frequent killer of big bads since it prevents dodging, parrying, etc., and therefore makes you Eviscerbait.

What about non-corps? They are immune to binding? Are they then immune to these new spells? Do the spells then belong in the Binding effect group? If so, does Enflame get changed too? And why is Enflame spelled that way, anyway?

Celestial casters are getting a pretty big boost in terms of raw offensive power come the next rules addition, which is when any new spells would see the light of day. Single step fixes are slow, but they remove the need to backtrack. I feel we should all be patient and wait to see what kind of impact the new wands will make before we go overboard with the Celestial balance fixes.
 
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
As currently written you could not generate any of those effects with the switchable Enflame spell, as it is from the Summoned Force effect group. It just wouldn't work, rules wise, whether you were stunning the limbs or binding them. There is no reason that Lich should have to carry Cloak Summoned Force items to avoid getting pinned. It makes no sense.
It meakes sense for the same reason that he would need Coak Summoned force items to avoid dropping a weapon, as with the current Enflame.

Dan Nickname Beshers said:
Further, Stun Limb vs. Bind are from different effect groups; If Shock produced a Bind effect, Release would fix it, and monsters capable of ripping free would be able to do so, neither of which makes sense given the intent of the spell. If it was a Stun Limb, only Purify or Dispel would fix you.
Bind can be fixed with Release, Purify or Dispel. Stun Limb can be fixed by Restore, Purify and Dispel. 3 cures for each one. But with Stun Limb the monster can't rip free, which would add more love to Celestials!
 
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
What about non-corps? They are immune to binding? Are they then immune to these new spells? Do the spells then belong in the Binding effect group? If so, does Enflame get changed too?
Effects belong to groups. If you aren't affected by part of an attack you aren't affected by any of it. Therefore, anything with Binding in it will not affect non-corporeals.

Dan Nickname Beshers said:
And why is Enflame spelled that way, anyway?
Because that's the proper spelling. Or were you looking for a etymologic response?
 

Libras

Scholar
Web is also a 4th level spell that can be soft-countered by any mook with an edged weapon. Freeze I would also imagine being the 9th level x+status spell.
Web [4th] + 20 ice [4th] + Combine [+1] = 9th
Assuming the Enflame formula: 6th = 20 fire [4th] + Disarm [1st] + Combine [+1]
With 4 of these categorized spells; I would almost imagine adding a new incantation category for them.
 

Hammerfist

Artisan
You cannot be cut out of a Web
 

Togashin

Scholar
How about:
Ice Bolt [3rd] + Web [4th] + Combine [+1] = 8th
 
John beat me to the punch.

You can be cut out of an Entangle, though.
 
Togashin said:
How about:
Ice Bolt [3rd] + Web [4th] + Combine [+1] = 8th
The formula seems to add up, but I still like the idea of a spell where you can change the element.
 

Togashin

Scholar
That would be a good idea. I think it would be best to come up with one that wasnt 9th level.
 

Shane

Artisan
Telokh_Amdo said:
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
And why is Enflame spelled that way, anyway?
Because that's the proper spelling. Or were you looking for a etymologic response?
You are wrong. "Enflame" is a variant spelling of "inflame." Variant spellings are not generally considered proper or correct.
 

Libras

Scholar
Hammerfist said:
You cannot be cut out of a Web
D'oh! Keep forgetting that. In that case; change Freeze to be a Shatter effect. The object is encased in such thick ice it's structure becomes useless, in addition to the ice "radiating" its cold damage to the wielder.
I would like to vary the levels of the x+status spells because there is currently no mechanic to "level down" your spell slot to memorize a lower level spell. Shunting all of these into an Elemental X spell at 6th would limit their utility severely.
And an idea for the new incantation:
I call upon the elements to...
... Enflame your X. [I think the E is a Europeanization of Inflame.]
... Trench you.
... Shock you.
... Freeze your X.
 
Shane said:
Telokh_Amdo said:
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
And why is Enflame spelled that way, anyway?
Because that's the proper spelling. Or were you looking for a etymologic response?
You are wrong. "Enflame" is a variant spelling of "inflame." Variant spellings are not generally considered proper or correct.
It's more like "flammable" and "inflammable". Both are correct according to what I can find.
 
Of course this is all really way to complicated only for a rather small flash bang addition to really be realistic... =P Although as a Celestial caster myself I love the idea of a non necro wither spell! ^_^
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Web is 5th level not 4th.
 

Celebolwa

Scholar
I feel we should all be patient and wait to see what kind of impact the new wands will make before we go overboard with the Celestial balance fixes.
I agree with you Dan, but I will say I think many people (my self included) are a) getting a little impatient for these fixes and b) are worried that if the fixes do not fix the class issues;they are going to have to wait until the NEXT rules change after this one to have a fix.

It is a fine line.

Rabies
 
My point, Mike, was that a pin effect doesn't belong in the Summoned Force effect group. It belongs in the binding effect group. Having a spell that changes effect group based on how you cast it seems needlessly complicated, although I suppose there is what one might consider precedent. Still, I'm not personally sold on idea as a whole. I think the concept is interesting, but I feel the implementations suggested here are needlessly complicated and divergent from the current rules system.

I do agree that Celestial is somewhat shafted in that most of the best status effects are Earth only; all the Curses and all the Necro ones. Since status effects are often more useful than straight damage, it does seem somewhat unfair that the theoretical offensively minded school possesses far fewer of them. I'm pitching the idea of an Eldritch Force spell that limits the target to walking speed to my chapter owner. I feel it should be called Hobble, as in "With Eldritch Force I build a Hobble!", but apparently that could be conflated with Hobling. Personally, I find that hilarious, but you can't win 'em all.

Another idea that literally just popped into my head is introducing some very limited Illusion spells. Well, I've wanted to do it before, but I think I've thought of a few that could be made to work.

Phantom Image - This would essentially be a Magic Armor and a Spell Shield in one spell. However, it would take up the slot of both the Spell Shield and Magic Armor. I feel it should be placed at 3rd level, since it would be a Spell Shield that could get lost to a "2 Normal". However, it would pave the way for:

Illusion Image - This would be a Phantom Image with three charges. It would have to be 8th level at least, and putting it at 9th would conflict with the almighty Prison. Again, the balance is that it's even more of a gamble than Spell Shield. Yes, it could block three Deaths in a row, which is incredibly powerful; it could also absorb three simple weapon blows and be gone. Since you would have to announce "Illusion Image" when hit, anyone paying attention can respond accordingly.

Calming Vision - This is where the status effects come in. Calming Vision would be 4th level. Anyone hit with Calming Vision would stand still or sit down, entranced by the peaceful images in front of them that only they can see. However, any harmful effect would stir them from their reverie and restore them to normal. Any weapon blow and the target wakes up, immediately able to respond. This means that they could use any smart defense in response, like Parry or Resist Poison.

Enthralling Vision - Works like Calming Vision, except the target cannot respond at first when struck. This would have to be 8th level, since it is as debilitating as a Paralysis.

The Visions would not work on mindless or spiritless creatures.
 
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