Monster Slayer Ettiquette

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
I think the easiest way to handle this is to remove the rituals altogether, along with damage aura (but replace DA with magic aura, to allow people to swing magic), but people tend to get up in arms when that gets suggested.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
If damage bloat is the issue (which is agree it is an issue), make it harder to get more profs and backstabs.

You'd also need to adjust the mechanism by which celestial casters' wands increase in damage, probably something high magic based.
 
It was a one-off comment, not the end-all-be-all reason for my suggestion.

Also, as an aside (rather far aside at this point), I am generally opposed to suggestions that shift skills / benefits towards higher level players and make fun / meaningful character advancement even more distant for newer players.

-MS
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
I'm not sure if your comment is directed at mine, Mike, but my thought was making it so that the cost of base damage skills increases as you buy more, either by the cost itself increasing or the number of pre-reqs (crit attacks, say) you need to buy goes up with each purchase.

The problem, and it's a big one in my opinion, is that it totally minimizes raw damage classes over time.
 
The cost of base damage skills effectively DOES increase as you buy more. It just increases in an invisible way.

It takes 15 build to buy a prof whether you are level 1 or level 20. But, at level 2, it takes two games to gain that 15 build. At level 20, it takes approximately 20 games to gain that 15 build. That is an increased cost since you gain the exact same benefit, but need to play 10x as many games to get it. For all the inefficiencies in our system, that part is actually quite slick.

In general, my suggestion for decreasing damage bloat is to add more cool skill options, make current skill options more competitive, and decrease the pre-reqs of some skill options. If you are spending more build on skills other than profs, then damage decreases. I know plenty of players who would happily shed a few profs for more Parries or Stun Limbs. Or imagine if there was a physical skill that let a single weapon blow (including prepare to die blows) affect an opponent even if you only hit a shield or weapon. Players would spend build on that. More viable options decrease damage bloat. Always has, always will (if there is a rogue in the game that doesn't have max Dodges, I've yet to meet them).

-MS
 

KyleSchmelz

Fighter
I think the idea with graduated costs for profs and backstabs is not that it needs to slow down over time as you gain experience, but that it should slow down relative to other build options. I don't necessarily agree with making profs and backstabs cost more as you buy more of them, but there is a pretty significant distinction between the two options.
 

norman b

Squire
Hi, Rogue here without max dodges, actually no dodges, no evades. People are going to purchase those thing that they want to use. Some people don't buy anything but Profs and Parries, slays and repostes just get reposted back. Just because there are options, that doesn't mean people will purchase them.

Just my two cents.
 
Viable options get purchased. There is logistics documented proof of this. As rules change and some options get added or become more efficient, players buy those options (even players who previously were "straight prof" people). Useless options are mostly ignored (see "Create Trap" or "Wear Extra Armor"), but good options get purchased, primarily at the cost of the most "vanilla options". Not that I think it is a good idea, but if you added the Phase skill to the game and made it easy to buy, the number of profs in the game WOULD go down (extreme example is extreme).

-MS
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Mike, the build cost of profs does not increase as you level, just the time it takes to acquire one. The points you spend to get it take no longer to get because they are going to be used on a prof vs something else.
 
It also slows down in a second way. The relative benefit of each additional prof is lower than the previous one. When you get your first prof, for instance, it increases your damage by 50% (assuming a one-handed weapon). The second prof only increases your damage by 33%. And so on, ad infinitum. Many experienced player stop at a damage threshold (10, 15, and 20 are the most common) because the return on the investment for increased damage is increasingly less valuable (11 damage rarely drops a monster quicker than 10 damage and 21 has almost no meaningful benefit over 20).

So, while prof / backstab cost doesn't go up, the value decreases over time (especially compared to something like an Eviscerate which, in economic terms, effectively never loses value).

-MS
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Right. So the build cost doesn't increase as you level.
 
The system, as it exists, is mechanically similar to increasing build cost as you level (in two different ways, both of which I thoroughly detailed). That means that any problem that could be solved by increasing build cost as you level is already, at least mechanically, being similarly approached.

-MS
 

MaxIrons

Knight
Marshal
*pinches bridge of his nose* You are both right from certain perspectives. The investment of time increases as XP increases. The percentage increase to damage output decreases for each purchase (as it does in any linear system). However the relative cost when compared to other available abilities does not increase. I.E. It's always 15 build for a W. Prof, vs 4 build for a parry for fighters.
 

norman b

Squire
But I think what Tieran is getting at is that those fighters are still going to buy the profs (even up to 20 which takes some time) but they will just decrease their calls. The profs cost does not increase deterring people from buying them. I have 15 build? Im going to buy that Prof. Thats one step closer to my next increment of 5. If the cost went up by 5 every 5th one bought, people would be much happier stopping at 10 where it costs 25 now to buy another prof. Increased time and decreased odds that a number will drop a monster do not really deter someone from buying that prof. They just adapt to the difference by decreasing their number and waiting a few more games (or gobbie cross chapters) for maximum returns.
 
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Yames

Newbie
Wouldn't progressively increasing costs for profs just encourage higher level fighters to diversify their build expenditures in a way that discourages specialization and teamwork? (More so than the system already somewhat does at high levels)
 

MaxIrons

Knight
Marshal
I had the same thought Jamie.
 
I am actually a fan of doing 1 or the other. Granted, this would probably mean that Plot teams would have to update the monster database. But it would reduce damage bloat
 
Wouldn't progressively increasing costs for profs just encourage higher level fighters to diversify their build expenditures in a way that discourages specialization and teamwork? (More so than the system already somewhat does at high levels)
Not if the system encouraged build expenditure to be a better fighter in ways other than being a better thug. One of the big traps of the current system is that you can't eschew profs to pick up parries. You want to be a better defender? First spend 30 build on +2 passive damage, whether you want to or not.
 
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