My love/hate relationship with PVP

[RuneBrighteyes]

I really like PVP. I like it because I like to have my characters in high risk situations, and there is little that is more high risk than going against foes that do not have the "safety" of a plot committee.

I am probably more okay with this because I don't really care if my character dies as long as it is a somewhat interesting death (i.e. not bleeding to death under a bush because my team loses track of me. Being pushed under a bush bleeding to death is on the other hand RAD).

All this being said I have done little (if any) PVP- cause I also HATE it, or more specifically what I think will be the most likely outcome of it. And the reason is I meta-gamed. I weighed the added value of excitement and risk for me vs. the potential negative impact on other players. And I also weighed the complaints I believed I would hear OOG if I engaged in this activity.

My most recent team at Crossroads (in NY) were not at all good guys (no surprise to those who knew them). We did NOT engage in PVP as a team rule- the risk (in non-fun for others AND potential OOG grumpiness) did not seem to equal the reward. This rule was something we set up OOG even before the first event. And it worked out okay- it never really got to the point that it truly limited our actions.

My problem was what would happen if the townsfolk and heroes of the land learned about what we were doing and turned on us. Would we just take our sentence and then business as usual? If not concerned about non-fun and OOG complaints we would of likely engaged in some PVP.

I am NOT a fan of PVP when it is just bullying used to acquire power. I am a HUGE fan of it when it is part of a building narrative of antagonism, anger and vengeance.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Gilwing]

Oh oh, I'll bite since no one else is. I like PVP too and I agree that I am NOT a fan also of PVP when it is just bullying used to acquire power. I understand that you personally do not want to ruin some ones fun by killing there character. What if say I ran to the authorities and got your character into major trouble, would you try and exact your revenge?

If you break the law you get punished correct? The bad guys follow the same rule of thumb. If I kill BBG, I know he will be coming for me. Should I complain that hes out to get me now? Why, I brought it upon my self. The Undoer would use every thing in his power to come get me, I did try to end his life (and succeed). Why can't the guy that you got in trouble do the same? Because you are both PC's? That shouldn't matter. Its part of the story.

If you try to mess with people don't get upset when they come back at you. (General you, not directed to you Ray). If some one killing blowed my teammate, don't get upset if I return the favor, because that's the character I am. My character isn't going to the nobles. He's going to do it him self.

...I weighed the added value of excitement and risk for me vs. the potential negative impact on other players. And I also weighed the complaints I believed I would hear OOG if I engaged in this activity....My problem was what would happen if the townsfolk and heroes of the land learned about what we were doing and turned on us. Would we just take our sentence and then business as usual? If not concerned about non-fun and OOG complaints we would of likely engaged in some PVP.

Question Ray, so they turn you in. Wouldn't this have a potential negative impact (to use your words) on your character? Of course it would, but people feel that you did something wrong and should be punished. The same should go the other way around.

 

[Toddo]

I'm right on board with Dave for all the reasons he stated. As long as it's completely IG and for IG reasons I think it is a valid use of your playtime. Having been on Rules and Plot commitees I've seen how bad PvP can get in terms of hurt feelings and thus I wouldn't personally play a character (anymore) who would murder a PC just because the opportunity presented itself to get away with it for no other reason than because it's fun. On the other hand I do not feel it as fair for me to condemn others who decide to do so. It is CERTAINLY not appropriate for me as a marshal to discourage people from engaging in activity that is allowed by the rules.

David hit the nail right on the head that PCs should be held to the same standards as NPCs in that if you're obnoxious to a monster then you can't resonably expect it not to try to stab you. If you choose to play a character that is abrasive then PvP may come your way, and sometimes you might say the wrong thing IG that can similarly bring down another PC's wrath. That's fine. Just make sure it's completely IG. It's a mess when you have people who aren't fond of each other OOG and PvP happens, even if it's all above board ruleswise if one party feels it was metagame motivated it's a nightmare for your friendly rules and manager people.

 

[Draven]

I think PVP has its place, but shouldn't be the sole function of a PC. I also think people will react to scenarios based upon a a certain set of priorities.

Do you make IG choices based, primarily, off

1) how you feel your character will respond, regardless of how that will turn out for him or other PCs?

2) what end scenario you feel is best for a "fun" experience?

3) whether or not you are likely to die/lose stuff?

It comes down to priorities, really.

 

[Inaryn]

PvP happens. It should be allowed to happen and not interfered with whenever possible by staff.

As a player, CYA. Get a marshal to over-see the situation just in case. It'll cut down on headaches later.

But, lastly, and most importantly, if you're going to engage in PvP, follow Wheaton's Law.

 

[evi1r0n]

I like PVP. If there are OOG components or you are just being a bully, stop it. Seriously... But if it's some good old fashioned conflict resolution, then go for it.

I too have a love hate relationship with PVP but it's Alliance specific. I personally am not a fan of PVP in Alliance for two major reasons. The death system and player culture. I am going to get critical of the system and culture. This isn't meant as an attack. Alliance has so many strengths that has kept me a paying customer in one chapter and a staff member in another for years now. But since you brought it up, I figure I would air my thoughts.

1. Death system: Our death system carries very little weight. Some characters require 12 deaths to kill off, so brandishing weapons and mana loses a lot of impact. In one and done games PVP is so much more meaningful. In Alliance, unless you take serious precautions, you have to face the person you just ganked within 15 minutes of killing them. Then you are left with a PvP loop that comes down to who has the most powerful friends/political power. The death system makes PvP between characters of different station, a nightmare and keeps those in power in power, which to me is damaging.

2. Player culture. I have been reading the boards for years now and I see a pattern of people saying things like, "I metagamed because PVP would be taken poorly OOG". I am always bewildered when this statement is made because I am so philosophically oppose to being precious about my characters but I see it or at least hear about it on both coasts. I think in a game system with death and PVP in the rulebook it's poor sportsmanship to "take it badly OOG" but it seems to be happening.

Now I am not saying you shouldn't get upset when your character dies, most of us are at least a little emotionally attached to our characters but I don't think we should be getting upset at what killed us, just that the story is ending.

I hate OOG drama. Nothing turns me off to a game more than OOG drama. If I have to worry about OOG drama when I PVP it ruins the experience for me. Fortunately for me it's yet to come up but I will never shy away from PVP. I am not unreasonable and I will always work to keep a character playable but in the end if you deserve to die, in my characters eyes, he is going to make an attempt. It feels unfortunate that I have this bit of worry about, though.

 

[Agnar]

Oh oh, I'll bite since no one else is. I like PVP too and I agree that I am NOT a fan also of PVP when it is just bullying used to acquire power.

Dave? Dave. Really? Lol

 

[Gilwing]

Oh oh, I'll bite since no one else is. I like PVP too and I agree that I am NOT a fan also of PVP when it is just bullying used to acquire power.

Dave? Dave. Really? Lol

Yes. Steve. I don't kill players because they have a nice toy and I want it or because I know I can. I kill them because to my character they disrespected me or some one I respect.

If your referring to the last NJ event we both attended, I did bully some one, but I didn't kill them.

 

[Paladin of Flame]

Please stay on topic. Thanks.
-P. Flame :watsup:

 

[phedre]

The only time I've seen true issues arrive with pvp is when people didn't know how to maintain the boundaries between IG and OOG.

I had someone look at me and say "If you rez my character, it will end our friendship." We were discussing team dynamic and PvP in general, and I was absolutely taken aback. I've since distanced myself from both the player and character, because I find it indicative of the person's general attitude about game and disagree on a fundamental level.

There's a line, like Dave mentioned, where PvP is all good as long as its done IG for IG reasons. Being an evil character is also distinct from being an OOG jerk. As long as it stays IG and people aren't targeting other players (like going after someone's primary, secondary and tertiary just because you dislike them OOG) then I don't see an issue with it.