My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to fight

[RuneBrighteyes]

Shields...

They can look SO COOL. Heraldry and art and cool shapes. So visually stunning.

I LOVE teaching people how to Alliance fight. I am a teacher by trade, and I just dig helping people get better. I feel like I have taught some people pretty well, and overall have been able to teach people to fight more successfully.

And I steer ALL of them away from learning how to use a shield. Because I think starting to learn how to fight using a shield limits how much you actually learn about Alliance fighting. Pick up a shield and you can hold your own pretty quickly. But that same comfort can de-incentivize people from gaining more skill.

I think shields are AMAZINGLY EFFECTIVE. But I also think that they can be a crutch that can limit people in the long run.

What do you think?

 

[stonegolem]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I think learning to feel effective is more conducive to helping new players become good players than learning to BE effective.

I feel like it is more important for someone to enjoy what they are doing in our game and feel comfortable and excited and important, than it is for a person to become a beast in combat. We are blessed with a system, for all of its flaws and inconsistencies, that allows even the least physically adept person to "Be All They Can't Be" and really do wonderful things in a combat situation that if this were "real life" or even a less representational game like Belegarth or Dagohir or Amtgard or SCA, they would be unable to perform at even a not counterproductive level, let alone competitively.

It is useful and good to be physically fit and well-trained in our system - that is absolute fact. Placing artificial hurdles before a new player in the name of the long run can and sometimes does remove the desire to play in the short run - also fact. For me, I am more interested in making sure people have a good time, and in my personal experience it is more conducive to helping someone have fun to let them look at all the weapons in NPC camp and go "pick what looks cool and fun" and train them with that.

After they get hooked, of course, is when you tell them to put down that shield and pick up a short claw.

 

[Undrask]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I think its a good idea to teach people the shield and then discourage them from picking easy mode and encourage them to explore the other weapons. I'm a pretty new fighter and I feel pretty comfortable as an NPC with most weapons, but I generally shy away from shields because they A: aren't as fun to fight with unless you're trying to be super competative and B: because I really just want to get better at fighting.

Not having the head available as a strike area allows you to pretty much hide your entire body behind a shield. A sword and shield shmo is going to have a HUGE advantage in that if they do it right they really don't even have to move to block almost every shot. Now compare that to ANY OTHER OPTION.

 

[Gilwing]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Let me first start off by saying, I love shields. I feel every one should learn shield, including scholars. At one time I had some of the three highest E Scholars on my team, all knowing how to use a shield...Is it a crutch? Well how do you define it? I use a Shield because I feel I'm good with a shield. Like you Ray I'm also wicked with a 2H'er (Ironic because I play a Dwarf) but I don't use it unless I'm npcing. Do players that only use two weapons use them at a crutch too? i just think its your style that you feel comfortable with. If you want to try something new, npc. See how you like it. It helps out the game and yours at the same time.

We are blessed with a system, for all of its flaws and inconsistencies, that allows even the least physically adept person to "Be All They Can't Be" and really do wonderful things in a combat situation that if this were "real life" or even a less representational game like Belegarth or Dagohir or Amtgard or SCA, they would be unable to perform at even a not counterproductive level, let alone competitively.

I have to disagree with this. I don't think it allows the least physically people to "Be All That You Can't Be". Our game is mostly based on "just do it". It is more physical and not stats (a side from a few things). I played another larp (DR) where it was the opposite, Stat card Vs. Stat card. Some one has the skill where they can disappear, bam gone. No matter how may people are around and I made every one surround him too (I had an Alliance player mindset). They have skills to negate skills. To me they are more of a "you want to be that guy, you can". In Alliance your character can never be fast or "sneaky" unless the player is.

*Back on topic, sorry*. I Love Shield :wub2:

 

[Durnic]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I started playing with only a single longsword and man things were hectic. I could defend or attack, I felt like, not both and coming up against experienced NPCs who were duel welding was always a chore but I managed by being a sneaky snake and using my team members to help me get into a position to do damage. I won't say I was super effective by doing this, just better then I was while trying to stand toe-to-toe.

Then I learned throwing weapons which, combined with my alchemy, gave me a lot of versatility. But alas, being a low level player alchemy is still REALLY expensive so I am very careful about when I throw globes and when I use weapon coatings.

Then I learned two weapon fighting and bought another short sword and, man, was it on then. I could block with my off hand and attack with my main hand. I could get behind someone and just go to town with both weapons. It was awesome. I felt like a blender.

I just recently purchased style master and I made a shield. I have not played with it in a game but I have done a couple of sparring sessions and boy howdy is a shield just incredible. It feels great finally being able to just knock arrows out of the air instead of having to dodge and dash all over waiting for them to run out of blue packets before I could charge in. I love my shield. I can't wait until I get the chance to really try it out in the game at the end of the month.

For some reason or another, my two local chapters are short on low level fighters that rock a shield which makes our shield walls during large battles somewhat of a joke. I will gladly be helping fill a hole in the line soon.

Alliance allows for all kinds of play styles. Thus far I enjoy dual wielding and sword and board the most. For a new player I would recommend that they play and learn whatever they like the idea or looks of the most then they can always branch out from there. Do you like the idea if spear and shield? Go for it! Think swinging a two hander is all manly? Do that then! Want to learn it all so you can pick up anything on the field and use it? Why not that?

I love that in Alliance I can learn all kinds of things and branch out all over without gimping myself horrifically. This isn't an MMO where you have to min/max to beat that raid boss and I am thankful for that.

 

[Talen]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Folks are going to go with what works- and teaching them other stuff? Great, but don't choke off their access to shields or learning how to use them. They're not crutches, any more than thinking that because longswords exist, we should keep people using daggers because it might stunt their growth otherwise.

 

[stonegolem]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

What I said.

I have to disagree with this. I don't think it allows the least physically people to "Be All That You Can't Be". Our game is mostly based on "just do it". It is more physical and not stats (a side from a few things). I played another larp (DR) where it was the opposite, Stat card Vs. Stat card. Some one has the skill where they can disappear, bam gone. No matter how may people are around and I made every one surround him too (I had an Alliance player mindset). They have skills to negate skills. To me they are more of a "you want to be that guy, you can". In Alliance your character can never be fast or "sneaky" unless the player is.

Don't misunderstand where I'm going with this! I absolutely agree that having the physical skill and wherewithal to actually perform the feats you want your character to do are VITAL to mastery of the combat game. That said, because we do use representative skill calls (such as Dodge or Parry) to perform stunts that we were not able to accomplish physically, it does mitigate somewhat the need to be one hundred percent capable. If you as a player are actually able to parry all of the incoming blows and dodge all of the packets, all the better for you - you can spend your build points on offense and really be a monster on the field!

My point is that it is not REQUIRED to be a monster on the field to derive enjoyment from combat and feel like an effective fighter (or rogue or scholar). Similarly, it is not a requirement to "avoid the crutch" while learning the game. I simply think it is more important to hook new players and allow them to develop what they like best rather than what will make them the most effective, and THEN train them in the ways of combat mastery. In that vein, I will never be the person to tell a new PC or NPC that they shouldn't learn how to use a shield first, if that's what they think will be the most fun for them to use.

 

[Tevas]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I feel that removing styles from an individual's educational path undermines the learning process. To direct people away from a shield because a particular party feels like shields are "easy mode" or are some form of crutch does not serve to the student's benefit. If the objective is to teach specifically florentine fighting, or polearm, or single sword, then yes, by all means teach the exclusive subject matter. If the objective is to raise the general ability level of a particular fighter, then omitting a core style isn't conducive to that goal.

In order to create strong foundations for fighting, I feel it is crucial to understand the capabilities of different equipment choices. The most intimate knowledge of a particular style comes from fighting with that gear. If you want to know how to better defeat a boardsman, pick up a shield. If florentine fighters pick you apart, grab a second sword. Learn how and why a style works, and what approaches are best to exploit that style's shortcomings. Every style has them, including shields.

The thought process echoed earlier in this thread that shields are easy or cheap because all that's available to hit is the head tends to create sub-par fighters. People are resigned to denounce the shield instead of learning how to combat it. This also speaks to a lack of footwork and lateral motion in combat. Utilizing these areas along with wraps, fakes, baits, counters and a variety of other resources, fighters can easily land blows on a boardsman who only appears to have their head available. Being stuck in a linear fight against a shield is what the boardsman wants. If you play their game, then the shield will certainly appear to be a cheap or easy style. Just like how if you stand at a polearm's maximum threat range the pole may appear cheap or easy.

In order to learn strong and viable fighting skills, it is critical to address the mental aspect of fighting. Understanding things like effective range control, threat areas, footwork, shot location and proper body mechanics will allow you to adapt to different weapon combinations and field scenarios. These components will be far more effective in developing quality fighters than simply disregarding particular styles. I would strongly encourage people who are in the learning process to pick up all manner of different equipment choices and apply these fundamentals to each style.

The short of it is, shields are not cheap, easy or a crutch. That mentality is a roadblock to developing effective and quality fighters who understand the physical mechanics of combat and the mental skills to apply those mechanics in a variety of situations. Ultimately this is a game that we pay to play and have fun at. If someone wants to run around with double down axes then more power to them. If they have fun with it, awesome. I totally encourage them to go that route. If that same fighter came up to me and asked me to teach them how to be a beast on the field, that would be an entirely different matter. In that event, I would refer to my above comments.

 

[Avaran]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Not having the head available as a strike area allows you to pretty much hide your entire body behind a shield. A sword and shield shmo is going to have a HUGE advantage in that if they do it right they really don't even have to move to block almost every shot. Now compare that to ANY OTHER OPTION.

Depends on the shape and size of the shield. Max size square-like shields are the most troublesome.

Part of the reason why I dislike shields in general is that most people don't use them properly. It is against the rules to only leave illegal target areas (such as the head) as available targets, which is counter intuitive to using a shield. Hiding your entire body behind your shield is "turtling" and against the rules. Having your shield out in front of you and standing in a such a way that your feet and legs are multiple feet behind the shield, making it incredibly difficult to hit those targets without potentially charging the person, goes against, I think, the good sportsmanship rule; you're making them potentially have to break the charging rule on purpose to hit you? Yeah...no. Just like poking your head around a corner to see what is going on; you are only presenting your head as a target and therefore turtling (and encouraging people to knock you up-side the head).

You have to be very careful to intentionally leave targets for your foe to hit when using a shield, and I think that gets lost in the shuffle.

 

[Davion]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

This is my 4th season and I've used a shield for about 4 modules total. While I am very awesome at dodging and sword play, I suck at using my shield well and as soon as I put one on, I'm almost worse off then when I'm fighting with only 1 weapon. I get hit a lot more with spells and am not as dodgy. My friend who's been playing with a shield the whole time is far better.

The best way to learn how to fight is NPC where you change weapon combinations a lot and have no fear of dieing.

 

[Tevas]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

The best way to learn how to fight is NPC where you change weapon combinations a lot and have no fear of dieing.

I would have to respectfully disagree. The module environment in Alliance is not conducive to productive learning. Modules contain objectives, spell effects, alchemy and other abilities that distract from laying strong foundations for fighting skills. The combats are often too short for any lessons of significance to sink in.

During downtime or lulls in the game, pick up some gear and go fight your friends, or fight other NPC's. Make it a point to find the best fighter on the field and ask them, in game if you like, to go a few rounds. If you're not doing anything, go spar. Seek out people who are of a higher skill level than you are and go fight them and get horribly stomped. Ask them for feedback. Take suggestions on areas of improvement and always be open to advice on different approaches you could take. Create a learning culture that values the exchange of information and is always receptive to new ideas. By asking questions and actively fighting whenever possible, you maximize the potential for effective learning to occur.

 

[RuneBrighteyes]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Thanks to everyone for their on topic and constructive comments!

My point is that when someone wants to learn how to fight I steer them away from shield. I think that coming into fighting through a different style leads to a better end result.

Now to "HEAD ON A PLATTER" style. Here is why I really dislike it even if some of my best friends use it. It's just dirty pool using geometry to turtle. Long shield that covers your shoulder, head on the top of it, tilt forward at the waist, and then extend your shield arm towards your foe. I am 6'2" and 290 lbs.- and I can use this geometry to turtle. I am not saying that it makes it IMPOSSIBLE to hit me- just as "traditional" turtling still allows for hits by moving the turtle around or getting them off balance.

Sadly I think there is currently far too much past practice to remove this effective "style".

:cold: :sweat: :cold: :sweat: :cold: :sweat: :ninja:

 

[Tevas]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Sadly I think there is currently far too much past practice to remove this effective "style".

I do not fully understand this line. Would you mind clarifying?

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, there are ample ways to get around a shield, even one held in the position you describe. All of these approaches are relatively simple, and are entirely legal in the Alliance system. If a person becomes complacent fighting with a shield because they are never struck, then their opponents are not properly applying these concepts in order to pose a challenge. It is certainly not the boardsman's fault that their opponents have not been presented with the opportunity to learn to bypass the shield. This is where the education culture of the local group should step in to increase the average skill level of their fighters, as opposed to simply allowing them to struggle.

Although a very effective style, I do not feel that Florentine should be considered "cheap" because an opponent has equipment that they can block with and strike with as well. Nor should the same thought hold true regarding sword and down spear. Not only would an opponent have a large active blocking surface along the spear haft, but they would have significant range with the weapon as well. In similar fashion, I do not believe a shield should not be regarded as "cheap" simply because an opponent has a large passive blocking surface. Yes, it can be an imposing obstacle for an unfamiliar fighter to come up against. Again, however, we revert to the need for a culture that promotes the exchange of ideas, including how to bypass said shield.

The end result of an individual's educational path is determined by their desire to learn and by the availability of resources, to include constructive information. Levels of physical skill certainly apply, but again can only take a student so far without the proper material. By depriving an individual access to a common and fairly "core" weapon style, their available material is limited. Is varying your equipment choices beneficial to a progressing fighter? Certainly. Having a diverse skill set in terms of weapon familiarity is vital to achieving high levels of fighting success. The shield, however, has a firm stake in that territory and should be included in said fighter's educational path to ensure a more competitive result.

 

[RuneBrighteyes]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

All I had meant was that using a shield in this way is (as far as I can figure it) turtling. And because people have done this for long enough and often enough that I think it will be difficult to make this "style" against the rules.

I know that it can be worked around. But as far as I know turtling basically means "only presenting illegal targets for opponents to strike/hiding all legal targets behind the shield".

Does that make sense?

 

[Tevas]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

All I had meant was that using a shield in this way is (as far as I can figure it) turtling. And because people have done this for long enough and often enough that I think it will be difficult to make this "style" against the rules.

I know that it can be worked around. But as far as I know turtling basically means "only presenting illegal targets for opponents to strike/hiding all legal targets behind the shield".

Does that make sense?

"Turtling" is specifically against the rules. I do not understand why, with this in mind, one would continue to discourage new players from learning to use a shield correctly. I would think that someone who is teaching fighters how to engage in Alliance combat would be eager to ensure that they learned how to use the shield without turtling. If turtling is a problem on a particular field, that is the Marshal's duty to enforce the issue.

 

[RuneBrighteyes]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I discourage people to learn shield for as long as possible.

Mostly because it has been my experience that when/if they finally do they are MUCH better fighters. My other reason is that because shields are so prevalent that choosing to fight in a different style presents your opponent with a less faced challenge.

 

[Tevas]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Unfortunately I am unable to agree with that perspective on shields and new players. I have witnessed plenty of fighters who begin with a sword and shield and become dominant forces on the field in terms of combat skill. I have also witnessed plenty of non-shield fighters who remained unskilled regardless of tenure. One's weapon choices should not have such a significant impact on the learning process, nor on the quality of fighter they are capable of becoming. Successful fighting is about understanding what equipment you and your opponent have chosen, analyzing the other player's posture and body mechanics, identifying opportunities to exploit their shortcomings, and having the muscle memory and shot selection to take advantage of them in a timely fashion. This can be done with any combination of gear. The critical part is being capable of understanding the concepts that comprise these aspects of fighting. Whether you are using a board, a pole or are fighting Florentine, it is overcoming this analytical hurdle that ultimately elevates your fighting potential above the plateau of your innate physical ability.

I respect the fact that your intentions are to set the foundation for a successful fighting career for these new players. I can wholly appreciate the goal of creating a culture that values education and the promotion of ideas and learning. I would like to thank you for the time you've taken to assist these individuals with getting excited about and involved in the combat aspect of the game. As it stands however, my technical fighting career and instructional history simply do not lend themselves to allowing me to feel that such a stance on shields is of benefit to the educational path of these fighters.

Similarly, by reducing the amount of shields on the field, those fighters who do encounter a boardsman will have a much more difficult time engaging them. Without sufficient exposure, and limited opportunity to learn methods for combating a shield outside of modules, newer fighters will certainly see the task as daunting. If there are concerns about approaching shields either from the perspective of wielding them or combating them, I feel educating the fighting community would likely be the more productive route than simply discouraging their overall use.

 

[markusdark]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

I believe that a person should use what they want to use. If they see themselves as Boromir with a shield, help them do it right. The trouble is what is considered 'turtling'. Here's what it says in the rulebook:

Turtling: Crouching down and hiding behind a shield so that no legal targets are available for your opponent to hit. This is not allowed. Do not do this.

To me, this means finding yourself a place where your opponent cannot flank you, bending at the knees, putting the bottom of the shield on the ground and just having your head popped out around it, with your arm flying out to swing every so often.

Someone standing up, shield out, tilted and so on is just the correct way to use one. As other's have mentioned, there's other ways around it, with spells and alchemy packets being the foremost, but it's all about fighting style. If my sides and back are open while I use a shield, no matter what is being offered in front of me, I don't feel I'm turtling. Of course, Rules Marshals may vary...

And as for "all that you can't be", I feel that Alliance does that much better than any other group out there. There aren't many that offer you the ability to land harder hits. With the SCA, et. al., you are swinging for the same 'damage' as everyone else. In Alliance, you can land one blow to someone else's ten and still be out ahead with a PTD skill active. That's where it's considered, IMO, "all that you can't be." Of course, with all things being equal (same skills, etc.) it will be the physically able person who comes out on top.

 

[RuneBrighteyes]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Why crouch when you can turtle by standing. Remember also that turtling has no concessions for being able to surround your foe.

As for encouraging people to avoid picking up shield too soon I do this when people want me to teach them how to fight. I still believe that delaying using this AMAZING style for as long as possible will make you a better fighter overall- especially if and when you do pick up the shield for use. I have found that the people that I have worked worth are pretty skilled AND flexible. Your individual mileage may vary.

Realize that I get that I am way in the minority here. I also suggest people go out and use just one weapon (usually longsword) for as long as possible as well.

 

[Tevas]

Re: My LOVE/HATE Relationship with Shields and learning to f

Why crouch when you can turtle by standing. Remember also that turtling has no concessions for being able to surround your foe.

As for encouraging people to avoid picking up shield too soon I do this when people want me to teach them how to fight. I still believe that delaying using this AMAZING style for as long as possible will make you a better fighter overall- especially if and when you do pick up the shield for use. I have found that the people that I have worked worth are pretty skilled AND flexible. Your individual mileage may vary.

Realize that I get that I am way in the minority here. I also suggest people go out and use just one weapon (usually longsword) for as long as possible as well.

Again, "turtling" is specifically against the rules. To engage in such behavior is cheating, and players who do this should have the behavior addressed by their local marshal. If you are concerned that newer fighters will excel in combat with a shield and become complacent because through the act of turtling they are unable to be struck, then these players are not successful because shields are overpowered, they are successful because they are cheating. I do not feel that this concern should lend itself to denouncing shields to entry level fighters.

I still wholly disagree with this stance on shields hindering educational success. I do so speaking from a long history of experience training and developing competitive fighters. As successful high performance fighting relies on a detailed understanding of mechanics and opponent analysis, your initial weapon choices should not play such a drastic role in your ability to adapt to this level of engagement. While I respect you as an individual as well as for your contributions to the fighting community, I am unable to find any foundation for this perspective that you are presenting. I fully support you encouraging the education of new fighters, however I cannot identify with any tangible benefits of this particular method.