New rule questions

[Polare]

According to the rulebook pg 60, Dispel Magic will remove all effects except Ward and Circle of Power. Lesser Investment, in the Eldritch Force group, is not mentioned. Neither is Light.

Which of the following will work?

1. Polare casts a Ward or Wizard Lock (doesn't matter which). Only Polare is invested. Later, Polare casts Lesser Investment on Joe while inside that Ward or WL. A moment later, Polare hits Joe with a Dispel Magic. Is Joe still invested, or is the Lesser Investment destroyed?

2. Polare casts Light on himself (note that the spell description now specifically says that it's on a person, not an object). Polare then hits himself with a Dispel Magic. Is the Light still active?

Bonus question:

3. Polare casts a Ward on the tavern. Then Polare casts a Ward on the kitchen. Polare then invites Gregor in and casts Lesser Investment while in the kitchen. Is Gregor invested in both wards? Only the inner ward? Only the outer? Polare's choice? Gregor's choice?

-Bryan

 

[Kauss]

According to the rulebook pg 60, Dispel Magic will remove all effects except Ward and Circle of Power. Lesser Investment, in the Eldritch Force group, is not mentioned. Neither is Light.

Which of the following will work?

1. Polare casts a Ward or Wizard Lock (doesn't matter which). Only Polare is invested. Later, Polare casts Lesser Investment on Joe while inside that Ward or WL. A moment later, Polare hits Joe with a Dispel Magic. Is Joe still invested, or is the Lesser Investment destroyed?

2. Polare casts Light on himself (note that the spell description now specifically says that it's on a person, not an object). Polare then hits himself with a Dispel Magic. Is the Light still active?

Bonus question:

3. Polare casts a Ward on the tavern. Then Polare casts a Ward on the kitchen. Polare then invites Gregor in and casts Lesser Investment while in the kitchen. Is Gregor invested in both wards? Only the inner ward? Only the outer? Polare's choice? Gregor's choice?

-Bryan

as to both lesser investment questions.
1) lesser investment seems to target the ward/wizard lock and not the person who is now invested. They are not targeted.
as to who gets invested and how page 82 "Any who are inside when the spell is case are invested and may enter and leave at will or recognize others into the ward or wizard lock."
So in my view, since its actally on the ward/WL then a dispel magic on the newly invested would not effect this.
as to question 3, I would say just the ward you are in at the time, much like when you set up a ward inside a ward, people invested in the inner ward may have had to be let into the outer ward. However becouse of the wording, I need to talk to the other marshals, as you can be inside (like in this case) 2+ wards at a time.


as to #2, it says in the spell that you "kindle a light wand", and that this light wand can be given to others. It also notes the light can be disspelled soo.. I would have to say a dispel magic would have to target the light, not the person. However its worded a little oddly, and it seem that the spell can be thrown at someone and give them the ability to light a wand. The wand does seem to be the foci however.

 

[Shikar al'Basteua]

1, 2. I suspect Light and Lesser Investment were left off the list by accident. I will get an official word on this as soon as possible.

3. Good question. I would say the invest happens solely within the inner (kitchen) ward. If you wanted to invest Gregor in the outer ward you would need to leave the inner ward. If you wanted to invest him in both you would need to cast the spell twice (once in each location).

-Dan

 

[Polare]

Something else to consider on the light issue: Liquid Light alchemy specifically says it can be dispelled by a Dispel Magic, yet no similar wording is there for the Light spell.

Another question: Weapon Coatings specifically require level 1 Alchemy to apply. Elixirs specifically require 1 level of Alchemy to mix into food or drink. Gasses, however, do NOT require anything to throw (pg 71). Should I assume that anyone without Alchemy can now throw gasses, or is that an omission?

-Bryan

 

[Polare]

Here's a more generic question. Let's say I have Kauss' skilled craftsmen build me a doorframe 1" inside the existing doorframe of a cabin (physrepped by "walls" I build out from the existing doorframe with a tapestry or some such for the door). Can I ward the outside building with the outside portal, then ward the building with the 1" inside portal separately?

For example, this would be the cabin:

_____________
|..................|
|..................|
|..................|
|..................|
|........_........|
_____|_|_____

.........^
two doors in a row

Make sense?

I can think of a large number of uses for this, but note that it would be physically impossible to stand in *just* the first ward. Does the interior structure make it a separate "room" for the purposes of Ward, even though it shares about 95% of its perimeter?

-Bryan

 

[jpariury]

Here's a more generic question. Let's say I have Kauss' skilled craftsmen build me a doorframe 1" inside the existing doorframe of a cabin (physrepped by "walls" I build out from the existing doorframe with a tapestry or some such for the door). Can I ward the outside building with the outside portal, then ward the building with the 1" inside portal separately?

For example, this would be the cabin:

_____________
|..................|
|..................|
|..................|
|..................|
|........_........|
_____|_|_____

.........^
two doors in a row

Make sense?

I can think of a large number of uses for this, but note that it would be physically impossible to stand in *just* the first ward. Does the interior structure make it a separate "room" for the purposes of Ward, even though it shares about 95% of its perimeter?

-Bryan

The rules that permit rooms within buildings to be warded seem to be designed with that specific purpose in mind: warding a room within a building. What you are proposing would seem to be, at best, a Bad Idea?. It also would lead to more questions such as "When you were in there, and you recognized me in the Ward.... which one?" I don't believe that the 1" space could really justifiably be considered "a room".

 

[Maxondaerth]

Neat idea, but don't you have to be standing inside the area you wish to ward at the time it's cast? I don't have my book but that's the first problem that springs to mind.

 

[Kauss]

Something else to consider on the light issue: Liquid Light alchemy specifically says it can be dispelled by a Dispel Magic, yet no similar wording is there for the Light spell.

Another question: Weapon Coatings specifically require level 1 Alchemy to apply. Elixirs specifically require 1 level of Alchemy to mix into food or drink. Gasses, however, do NOT require anything to throw (pg 71). Should I assume that anyone without Alchemy can now throw gasses, or is that an omission?

-Bryan

The alchemy skill itself notes the need for alchemy 3 to throw gasses. BTW the errata is already out, I havent printed myself a copy yet (but I will) but they are adding every day so, if you see something that isnt on the errata, post about it on the alliance board and they can add it.

 

[Polare]

Neat idea, but don't you have to be standing inside the area you wish to ward at the time it's cast? I don't have my book but that's the first problem that springs to mind.

You *are*. You can cast both from the same location.

The rules that permit rooms within buildings to be warded seem to be designed with that specific purpose in mind: warding a room within a building. What you are proposing would seem to be, at best, a Bad Idea?. It also would lead to more questions such as "When you were in there, and you recognized me in the Ward.... which one?" I don't believe that the 1" space could really justifiably be considered "a room".

But the recognition problem is true with *any* two-ward arrangement. Kauss, for example, sometimes wards his back separately from his front. Yet someone looking from the back can recognize you through both, or just one or the other.

Hey, a ruling of "that's just asinine, sorry" works for me and I'll be happy to accept it -- but I must say that our characters in-game ARE looking for any advantage they can get in things like this. It can be a life and death issue, and they have all day to play around with things like this. Polare can see a lot of uses for something like this.

-Bryan

 

[Seattle_Dave]

Basically, I guess it comes down to defining what size something has to be to be able to be warded off from something else; ie, how much space must exist between it and the outer ward to reasonbly justify the presence of another ward within the spirit of the rules. Now, I could see the possibility of your ward system if it were large enough for a person to step into (like an entryway) and the second ward had a seperate entrance (since you can only have one way in/out).

 

[Kauss]

You *are*. You can cast both from the same location.



But the recognition problem is true with *any* two-ward arrangement. Kauss, for example, sometimes wards his back separately from his front. Yet someone looking from the back can recognize you through both, or just one or the other.

Hey, a ruling of "that's just asinine, sorry" works for me and I'll be happy to accept it -- but I must say that our characters in-game ARE looking for any advantage they can get in things like this. It can be a life and death issue, and they have all day to play around with things like this. Polare can see a lot of uses for something like this.

-Bryan

However, so far in my rooms case, I have never allowed someone into both wards with a single recognition. (In part as no one has ever tryed to come in both in a single breath ).

I think the problem in question ends up being that in your example, you have warded the same room 2 times, and its not really a new room. But...if you had a hallway or something, even a fairly small one, it might work. So it does come down to a definition of a room.

 

[Maxondaerth]

Ah, another flaw would be that the inner door would now be sealed off by the ward you cast using the outer door. Since a Ward can only have one entrance, and that one being the very front door, it would fail. The reason you can ward, say, a closet inside a warded building is that the door of the closet opens into the open area inside the larger ward, while the other walls only butt up against the outer walls of the larger ward. Make sense? Reminder, I'm not a marshall up here, but I'm starting to remember the discussions we've had in the past on marshall boards and IG scenarios as to what we could and could not ward. Somone correct or back me up on this in an official capacity?

Jeff

 

[Kauss]

Ah, another flaw would be that the inner door would now be sealed off by the ward you cast using the outer door. Since a Ward can only have one entrance, and that one being the very front door, it would fail. The reason you can ward, say, a closet inside a warded building is that the door of the closet opens into the open area inside the larger ward, while the other walls only butt up against the outer walls of the larger ward. Make sense? Reminder, I'm not a marshall up here, but I'm starting to remember the discussions we've had in the past on marshall boards and IG scenarios as to what we could and could not ward. Somone correct or back me up on this in an official capacity?

Jeff

The problem is, he is building small walls and a new doorframe. "Here's a more generic question. Let's say I have Kauss' skilled craftsmen build me a doorframe 1" inside the existing doorframe of a cabin (physrepped by "walls" I build out from the existing doorframe with a tapestry or some such for the door). Can I ward the outside building with the outside portal, then ward the building with the 1" inside portal separately?"
tenicly its like a mudroom or hallway and is a slightly diffrent portal.

 

[Polare]

The problem is, he is building small walls and a new doorframe.

Kauss has the idea.

How about a different phrasing of the question: Can you legally create a ward such that you cannot stand completely inside it without also being inside another ward?

-Bryan

 

[Maxondaerth]

True, but the way I'm understanding it, you go through door one and you are now squished into a room 1" deep, facing the second door, which is directly in front of me. Now you recognize me through that second door but *oops* I run into the back wall of the first ward cause it sealed off that inner door.

Now, if you took tarps, tapestries, whatnot, and hung them up all connected to form a tent-like room inside the cabin that was kinda like an inner cabin but actually not using anything but the cabin floor and ceiling to enclose it and you did this, that would work IMO. In fact, if you had enough tarps/hangings whathaveyou, you could do this five or six times till you had a small inhabitable space at the middle of the layered house. But, I would also say you'd need a minimum of somthing like 1 foot to 18" between each layer so that you could in fact exist within each ward, just for game safety and dynamics. You could even then keep reversing the door directions so that it made a little maze in there. (Enter cabin, there is a tarp. Go along the outer wall and around to the back of the cabin, where the door flap into the tarp is, You enter that and you are facing a tarp. Follow that around till your back in front of the door, but the flap into the next layer is heading further into the interior of the cabin. Repeat as often as you like till you get to a single matress and duffle bag sitting in the center of said cabin in a CoP. Enjoy your paranoia!)

Jeff
you wanna get nuts?! C'mon! Let's get nuts.

 

[jpariury]

Kauss has the idea.

How about a different phrasing of the question: Can you legally create a ward such that you cannot stand completely inside it without also being inside another ward?

-Bryan

That was kind of my point. Ultimately, a space in which you cannot even fit your body (without chopping it into tiny bits) doesn't really constitute a separate room. Arguements of "Well the outside of the building is a building, and the inside of the building is a room" wouldn't really cut it, IMO.

 

[Seattle_Jim]

_____________
|..................|
|..................|
|..................|
|..................|
|........_........|
_____|_|_____


-Bryan

Totally off topic, but Bryan's little visual aid really reminded me of Nethack.

 

[Polare]

But, I would also say you'd need a minimum of somthing like 1 foot to 18" between each layer so that you could in fact exist within each ward, just for game safety and dynamics.

That makes sense to me, and would seem a reasonable rule of thumb.

-Bryan

 

[Kittyfox]

So here's a fun scenario.

Kitty "finds" a trunk/chest dealie. Through a bit of "experimentation", she finds she can fit inside it. So Kitty goes and "finds" a 1/ever or 1/day ward item, crawls into the chest, and wards it from inside. She then stows all her stuff in it or uses it as a refuge if nessecary.


Would that work? I know in order to get the stuff in or out I'd have to crawl into the trunk in it's entirety. The examples for warding are building, tent or unmovable wagon. I've met some tents in my time that were a damn sight more movable than some of the chests I've met. ^_^ And wagons are always movable, aren't they? *shrug*
On the box, there is only one portal (the top) and there is plenty of space to place a prominent "W". Marshal's notes go on the inside of the top. Sounds feasible to me. . . ^_^
Becca

Oh yeah, and to my understanding, a ward fixes said object in place.

 

[Kauss]

So here's a fun scenario.

Kitty "finds" a trunk/chest dealie. Through a bit of "experimentation", she finds she can fit inside it. So Kitty goes and "finds" a 1/ever or 1/day ward item, crawls into the chest, and wards it from inside. She then stows all her stuff in it or uses it as a refuge if nessecary.


Would that work? I know in order to get the stuff in or out I'd have to crawl into the trunk in it's entirety. The examples for warding are building, tent or unmovable wagon. I've met some tents in my time that were a damn sight more movable than some of the chests I've met. ^_^ And wagons are always movable, aren't they? *shrug*
On the box, there is only one portal (the top) and there is plenty of space to place a prominent "W". Marshal's notes go on the inside of the top. Sounds feasible to me. . . ^_^
Becca

Oh yeah, and to my understanding, a ward fixes said object in place.

as far as I know, this is fully legal, as long as if you can fully get into the trunk and realise you can only get things out when all the way in it. It would become imobile for the duration of the spell, and would be marked in the same way a doorway is.