New Wither vs Stun

kalindra

kalindra

Adept
I notice that Stun Limb was added to Eldritch Force at level 8 Celestial, whereas Wither now disables all four limbs, and is level 6. Considering that Confine is already level 7, was there a particular reason Stun Limb was put at such a high level?

Similarly, if Wither removes the use of all four limbs, it seems to me that it's similar in power level (if not higher) to Drain at level 8, since in both cases you can't use weapons or throw packets. With a Drain you can still activate items, drink potions, walk and speak, whereas with Wither you can only speak, and roll around like a log I guess.

What's the reason for these spells being at the levels they are?
 
I don't have a problem with Stun Limb being a higher level because it's basically a Wither with no stigma/risk attached. 8 might be a rough level to justify its use, but on its face I'm comfortable with it being higher than Wither.

My concern is that Wither both dropped in level and increased in power. Necro now has Wither at 6, Confine at 7, Drain or Paralysis at 8, and Death or Corrupt at 9, all of which are effectively killing/takeout spells. I know one of the stated goals was to make necromancy more scary/enticing as an option, but that seems more than a bit over the top.

My opinion: Wither is a better necro tool in its new slot at level 6 but should keep its original single-limb effect. Stun Limb is ok at level 8, but might see more frequent use at 7.
 
I like that necromancy is overpowered. The in-game consequences for PCs are absolutely brutal. I think it is appropriate that the reward for taking that risk is an actual massive boost in effectiveness. I only wish signature necromancy was at a 10 scale instead of a 5 scale, because it still doesn't quite pay off compared to the penalty.

I recognize that NPCs often don't risk anything using necromancy, but that doesn't change my assessment. If plot wants a NPC to have certain skills / abilities, plot just gives them to the NPC, which means that relative balance of skills and spells don't really matter for NPCs. Move Wither back to level 8, plot just gives the NPC a bigger pyramid if it wants the NPC to have lots of Wither spells.

Overall, I think this is an excellent decision and I actually feel tempted to play a necromancer PC for the first time since Drain Life left the game.

-MS
 
I don't disagree that more power to necromancy is good, but setting aside the fact that nearly half of a necromancer's memorization is now kill spells it's still bad design to take a skill that hampers an opponent and turn it into one that is a de facto kill, especially when there is already an inundation of killing spells and a dearth of good status affecting ones.
 
Necromancers should be scary.

NPCs will still be massively outnumbered.

I think this is one of those changes that should be given a chance to fail, rather than just assuming it will.
 
ASFDan said:
You should really work on not being so dismissive.
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I'm not being dismissive. I think you're reading something into my tone that wasn't there to begin with.
 
Draven said:
I think this is one of those changes that should be given a chance to fail, rather than just assuming it will.
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I don't think anything should be pushed through just to fail. Why would you waist peoples time like that? If we know it's not going to work it would be a disservice to our players, to our customers to pass it through just because we want to see it fail. That does not make a better game and as a player a would question ARC and the owners if they were allowing things to be pushed through just because time was spent on it even though they know it was going to fail (I think that's Microsofts job....oww sorry hehe joking).
Btw...I don't mind the change in level and the power boost. Fear the necro power!
 
Gilwing said:
I don't think anything should be pushed through just to fail.
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I think you're intentionally misinterpreting my meaning.

Would you prefer, "Give it a chance, guys?"

Because that's what I meant. I apologize if it wasn't clear enough.
 
Isn't giving it a chance what playtesting has been about? I say you're being dismissive because you made a pretty unfair assumption that I/we *haven't* given it a chance, and that if only we would we might see that it's ok.

We've had plenty of playtesting so far. I will continue to playtest and give a chance to change my mind on it, but that's not likely. It isn't a good change, and is one of the only things I've seen in the new rules that I consider a textbook case of bad game design.
 
Sure, but I absolutely toned it down from my reflexive response. ;)
 
Anyhow, we can play this whole "You bait me, I don't care" game as long as you'd like, but I don't believe it's particularly beneficial towards the subject matter, would you agree?
 
Evan, I understood what you meant. We need to try things to see if they work or not. Hence it will be left in the upcoming playtest. It will be peer reviewed, reported on then acted upon by ARC and owners.

Let's keep moving forward folks! We have lots to do, so again, nit picking and back and forth badgering needs to end. Keep it Civil! Have fun and let's get this done. :-)
 
ASFDan said:
I don't have a problem with Stun Limb being a higher level because it's basically a Wither with no stigma/risk attached. 8 might be a rough level to justify its use, but on its face I'm comfortable with it being higher than Wither.

My concern is that Wither both dropped in level and increased in power. Necro now has Wither at 6, Confine at 7, Drain or Paralysis at 8, and Death or Corrupt at 9, all of which are effectively killing/takeout spells. I know one of the stated goals was to make necromancy more scary/enticing as an option, but that seems more than a bit over the top.

My opinion: Wither is a better necro tool in its new slot at level 6 but should keep its original single-limb effect. Stun Limb is ok at level 8, but might see more frequent use at 7.
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Don't forget that the new disease, if used at -all- well, has a very good chance of being an ensured resurrection.
 
Muir said:
Don't forget that the new disease, if used at -all- well, has a very good chance of being an ensured resurrection.
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I understand why it can be an ensured Life spell, but why an ensured resurrection? It is a battle magic spell and isn't Corrupt, Raise Dead, or Prison. Thus, it should go away when you die, just like any other 10 minute duration spell, allowing you to be Lifed once you die.

-MS
 
Life items are going away, IIRC. There are going to be a much more sharply limited number of Life spells available.
 
ASFDan said:
I don't have a problem with Stun Limb being a higher level because it's basically a Wither with no stigma/risk attached. 8 might be a rough level to justify its use, but on its face I'm comfortable with it being higher than Wither.

My concern is that Wither both dropped in level and increased in power. Necro now has Wither at 6, Confine at 7, Drain or Paralysis at 8, and Death or Corrupt at 9, all of which are effectively killing/takeout spells. I know one of the stated goals was to make necromancy more scary/enticing as an option, but that seems more than a bit over the top.

My opinion: Wither is a better necro tool in its new slot at level 6 but should keep its original single-limb effect. Stun Limb is ok at level 8, but might see more frequent use at 7.
Click to expand...

Very minor point, but wanted to clarify: Wither in Alliance 1.3 is a level 6 spell. Wither in Alliance 2.0 is a level 6 spell. Just got more beefy, but didn't drop in level. Unless I'm missing something.
 
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