Newish with a couple arbitrary questions.

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Avaran

Baron
Or if they're in a big scary golem. D:
A Big Scary Golem™ is a magic item, which I covered in the prefix of that statement. ;)

And to reiterate what OrcFighterFTW said: It IS a team game, and your strengths are others' weaknesses. Part of the fun is thinking of, and executing, strategies and making plans with your friends if you get in those situations. =)
 

kalindra

Adept
I think everything that needs to be said has already been explained quite nicely, except:

--You can throw an assassinate or terminate from the front with a thrown weapon or bow;
--Waylay! If you can get past the magic armor, it's an instant takeout that you can use all day long.

That is all. Rogues are useful.
 

Sheakhan

Adept
Now that I consider it, I suppose it is simply a matter of immediately obvious benefit vs. subtle benefit.
While I'm still not sure rogue and fighter skills are entirely worth the build, there are some that are useful to have, and represent a drop in the pond to acquire in the long run.
 
Rogue:
One-Handed Edge (5)
Backstab x2 (30)
Assassinate (3)

Scholar (Celestial):
Read & Write (3)
Read Magic (4)
Celestial 1x4 (4)
Celestial 2x4 (4)
Celestial 3x4 (8)
Celestial 4x3 (6)
Celestial 5x2 (6)
Celestial 6x1 (3)

Both of these are straight-line specialized, low level characters.
You look at the numbers very analytically, but fail to see the bigger picture. I have played the game for over 20 years. My first PC was effectively a Scholar (technically it said Templar on my card, but I basically just had spells). My current PC is a Scout (rogue/fighter combo).

Here is my perspective. The celestial scholar you made has 18 spells. That means, if every single one of those spells is geared towards offense, you can attack a total of 18 times per day. And, if a spell misses, or worse yet, hits and is resisted (Resist Magic is a COMMON monster ability), it is used up, without any benefit. As soon as you start turning some of those spells defensive (for example, a Magic Armor or two), that offense goes down even more. In my experience, 18 spells will last you about two wave battles maximum and only if you are VERY conservative about casting. So, all of those other wave battles, modules, random creatures in the woods, etc. are things you have to skip because you are out of spells.

You make a good point about scrolls, but you fail to take into account economics. Scrolls cost 5 copper pieces per spell level to make AND the character you created can't make scrolls (doesn't have the skills), so you'd need to buy or find them. The retail price for scrolls is usually 1 silver piece per spell level. Based on the way the treasure policy of the game works, a 3rd level character should earn, on average, 18 silver a weekend. This is value, so that may not all be in money form. This is also an aggregate number. Each character is different. Spell casters tend to earn less than the average. But, even assuming you earn the average, you could only afford to buy 18 levels of scrolls, and that would bankrupt you. That is, at most, 18 extra spells per weekend, and probably less since you aren't likely to have only 1st level spells. I'll assume 3rd level for ease. That means 6 scrolls or 3 per day.

On the other hand, your rogue can swing for 2 normal an unlimited number of times per day and can swing for 6 normal an unlimited number of times per day when hitting an enemy's back. Every time the rogue swings for 6 normal, that is more damage than a 1st level spell from the caster. There is also that 30 damage hit, which actually is VERY unlikely to be wasted. Magic Armor blocks only the first weapon blow and then is used up. Any good rogue does a quick double tap, hitting for 6 normal and then swinging 30 assassinate before the enemy can turn around. If there is a magic armor, it stops the first hit, not the second.

There is also the difference of armor. A rogue can wear more points of armor and armor is effectively infinitely renewable body points (as opposed to requiring a spell, potion, or elixir to renew).

If your example had been a fighter, I would point out that a fighter can swing 4 normal all day (or 5 normal with a two handed weapon), but a rogue can effectively do that to if you understand the system. For only a slight amount of extra build, a rogue could get Archery (or for much less, the Thrown Weapon skill). Backstabs deal +1 damage (instead of +2) when used with a ranged weapon and that bonus is granted from the front or back of the target. Also, Assassinates can be thrown / shot without concern for facing. Admittedly, arrows cost money, but 1 copper piece / 2 arrows (1 copper each at standard retail costs) goes a VERY long way (180 arrows per weekend with average 3rd level earnings), and thrown weapons only need to be purchased once ever.


To be clear, I am not saying rogues are better than casters. Nor am I saying the opposite. I am saying that you are making comparisons without all the details or a clear picture of how the game plays. If I had to choose a character to bring on a module and your celestial caster had spells left and was willing to actually spend them all to complete the module, that character would be the better choice. But, if the caster was tapped out (had used up all spells) or was trying to conserve spells, I'd rather bring the rogue. In a wave battle, it is a crap shoot which is better.

Play what interests you, certainly, and don't forget more esoteric options. A single level of Blacksmith, the Waylay skill, or Archery skill, massively increases the effectiveness of that rogue build you made, in ways you probably can't fully understand until you play the game in person.

And, if you have any more questions, feel free to ask.

-MS
 
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Sheakhan

Adept
im starting to see the subtle balance there.
personally, and from a roleplay perspective, this character is better suited to doing a little of everything, and alchemy, blacksmithing, craft, merchant, legerdemaine, and novice celestial seems to work out pretty well, but i feel less apprehensive about tackling a fighter in the future.
 
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