NPC Combat Pages

It was specifically designed that way so a page would have to move away from combat.

I will make sure the page policy is at the next game so everyone can know the rules. This past one there was a page who was new to the game. While he knew enough to know the basic rules he had to follow, he had not ahd practical application of those rules. I think the main change needed here is not to the policy itself, but perhaps simply an addition of a certain amount of time as a yellow page before being allowed to interact on another level. Keep in mind that there are plenty of mistakes made by every new player, they are often more pronounced when coming from someone in a situation of being an NPC.
 
Hey Jeff I see what your calling a contradiction, and this is how I understand it. When the page rules say pages must stay 10 feet from combat it is referring to a large combat situation. For instance a bunch of monsters ambush the tavern, or the battle on sunday morning. Pages must do everything within their power to stay 10 feet away from that. That being the case, if a monster does go after them or they someone how get engaged that the attacker must not hit the page, but be within 5 feet to call damage. So basically it is saying that the page should do their best to stay out of combat, but that if combat comes to them the following rules apply. Now obviously this did not work out at the last event, but we will make sure that the page rules are better enforced in the future, and that the packet pages take the packet page test which was created by bryan (Head of Rules). This test did not make it to the last event, but will be present at all future ones, and will help screen for when a page is ready to go from stage 1 to stage 2.
 
if im right then it was me
my fault i go out as npc i get hit alot but that was my last event as a page and i really dont think that you should really worry too much about it because i didnt see any other pages getting hit

and if you are talking more about the page that was with dave he was he did not get the rules and should not have bin a packet page untill at least his
3rd event
ferther more i was wearing a full banndana so that wont do much
you can not stop pages from geting hit that just wont happen
 
It was a lot easier to remember that you were a page when you were two feet shorter.

I'd like to point out that my issue is solely with NPC Combat Pages who come in as aggressive NPCs. I do not have a problem with a page merchant with a wad of spells or alchemy. I don't have a problem with a page acting as a caster guard for a friendly noble. I have no problem with pages as NPCs. But as Jeff pointed out, when a page comes in as a death's head which will probably get gunned down darn near instantly, it creates a problem.
The only viable way for a PC to deal with an aggressive NPC page is to give chase which IMHO creates a more dangerous situation than hitting them with a weapon. I find tapping someone with pipe foam much safer than running through the woods in the middle of the night at top speed while screaming damage.
I have no problem with finding ways to include pages such as the rocks from Phil's scenario or primarily RP NPCs. I have no problem with packet pages as PCs because they generally avoid anyone swinging damage like the plague. But when I encounter a lich, troll, or orc, I feel it needs to be played by someone I can swing at.
 
Exactly what Marc was saying, with one exception. The rock NPC given as example is an immobile thing. Can't move out of combat without violating the monster card, and if PC's can't move into range to engage it you've now made it immune to all melee damage, which is rediculous for what the monster is (Phil's told me about em, so I get what he's going for for flavor of the monster, and that ain't it).
Pages are a lot of fun, I'd cry if I lost my Shae, but I feel we need to bear in mind in the future that the packet page rules are for occasional inclusion in combat, not so that pages could run along the edges of every combat trying to draw players and monsters alike into giving chase which, as Marc pointed out, could lead to decidedly unsafe conditions for both page and senior player alike.
 
Personaly I think this is about a failing of the situation and not the page rules. So a few words.

1) Pages should not be main Combat NPCs. However if they are attacked they should follow the page rules.

2) If you see a page getting hit, the call is not page, its HOLD.

3) If your a page getting hit the call is HOLD.

4) If you feel a page (as the page in question or as the attacker) may be forced to violate the page rules due to position, the call is HOLD.

5) If you see someone who you think might be a page, ask them. Just like if you ask "what do I see." you can also ask "Are you a page." Or say "Did you know your headband is rolled?"

I hear sometimes "I didnt know who they were so I attacked becouse I was being attacked." I dont buy that. If a page attacks you legaly, they are more than 5 feet away (should be 10+feet) so they tossed the packet at you, and you ran over to them and swung, all on auto? That to me seems unsafe even against non pages. I would prefer all players to be aware of who and what they are attacking to avoid illegal shots.

Now to address a few noted issues.
") Hitting someone who's throwing packets at me makes me more difficult to hit. A page who is standing there while I call damage at them has no impediment to hitting me with packets."
No page should still be able to throw if you are in damage dealing range. If they are this is a page violation and may be treated as a safety violation. Call hold and report it please.


"As an NPC they generally aren't concerned with their own life so rather than fleeing they will stand and cast and lose body as I hit them. "

If the NPC is a creature that should notice damage it should react normaly. If it doesnt (page or other) please report this to monster camp. The npc in question may need to be informed how to react to damage correctly.


"When an NPC attacks you, you attack back. This creates a danger for combat pages as you are often not paying attention to their headband while they're chucking spells at you."

Headbands should always be kept track of, yellow and orange and white. I have many times seen someone attack back on the wrong NPC in combat (not realising it was bob instead of joe for example) and as such no matter what all headbands need to be kept track of.


"Sometimes I wonder if it would help to announce that there are pages attending an event, and whether they are npcing or pcing. Does anybody think this type of reminder would help the situation at all?"

I think a who all are pages at the start of game could be nice. Just like the who all for marshals and plot.

Also just in general, if you are fighting someone/something that has No weapons at all, and only packets, take a moment and look for the headband. Just like how we try and avoid illegal shots, people's glasses and oog plot members trying to get out of the combat.
 
Kauss;19610 said:
Now to address a few noted issues.
") Hitting someone who's throwing packets at me makes me more difficult to hit. A page who is standing there while I call damage at them has no impediment to hitting me with packets."
No page should still be able to throw if you are in damage dealing range. If they are this is a page violation and may be treated as a safety violation. Call hold and report it please.
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I'm not sure where you're getting that indication from. If I approach Xylex and start calling damage on him he is fully allowed to gas me down. I had understood the rules to indicate that they must stay ten feet from where boffer combat is taking place.

The page rules state:
They must stay at least ten feet from any active combat zone.

Considering a separation is being made between an active combat zone and perhaps a passive combat zone I had always assumed this to be the difference of a boffer combat zone and a packet combat zone.
 
Masticon;19613 said:
I'm not sure where you're getting that indication from. If I approach Xylex and start calling damage on him he is fully allowed to gas me down. I had understood the rules to indicate that they must stay ten feet from where boffer combat is taking place.

The page rules state:
They must stay at least ten feet from any active combat zone.

Considering a separation is being made between an active combat zone and perhaps a passive combat zone I had always assumed this to be the difference of a boffer combat zone and a packet combat zone.
Click to expand...
If you approch him, with a IG weapon, and are in range to call damage
5 feet, then you have entered his 10 foot range, and he should try and move away. Now yes, he could try and throw/run but the point is you will be disrupting his aim, and if he cant run/throw then he cant throw at all on the move.
In general the level 2 page is expected to get out of range of your weapon. However where a non page PC might go "Hum, I can take this." a page is supposed to go "He is to close, I need to back off."

So if the page is just standing there and taking it, they may be at risk so it may be a safety issue so call a hold.
 
Kauss;19615 said:
If you approch him, with a IG weapon, and are in range to call damage
5 feet, then you have entered his 10 foot range, and he should try and move away. Now yes, he could try and throw/run but the point is you will be disrupting his aim, and if he cant run/throw then he cant throw at all on the move.
In general the level 2 page is expected to get out of range of your weapon. However where a non page PC might go "Hum, I can take this." a page is supposed to go "He is to close, I need to back off."

So if the page is just standing there and taking it, they may be at risk so it may be a safety issue so call a hold.
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While I agree that the anticipated response for pages is to run when attacked they are note required to any more than you or I. If someone begins attacking a page (using appropriate calls for damaging pages) the page has a choice to stand there, run, call for help, or attack back. I do not believe it would be appropriate to call a hold because someone is "attacking" a page and he decides not to run.
Now if there is immediate boffer combat in the vacinity the page should be making attempts to move away immediately regardless if they are being targeted and damaged or not.
 
Masticon;19626 said:
While I agree that the anticipated response for pages is to run when attacked they are note required to any more than you or I.
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Actually, if you are close enough to attack a paige the rules specifically state that they are to maintain a safe distance (10 ft); therefore they must retreat. If they stand there instead of attempting to return to the minimum safe distance they are in violation of a safety rule, and a hold *should* be called.
 
I'm just saying that the page rules don't reflect that interpertation.

All the rules state is:
------------
Pages may not enter combat in any way, including pouring
healing potions in unconscious bodies in the middle of battle. (Others
can drag these bodies to the pages for healing, however.). They must
stay at least ten feet from any active combat zone.

A page may be affected by a normal combatant if the
combatant is within five feet, by having the combatant announce "Page,
I >affect< you." Legal affects are: Spell Name, Gas Name, Waylay,
Slay, Stun Limb, Disarm, Shatter Your >item< (in which case the final
"you" is omitted), or Eviscerate. Applicable spell incants or weapon
skill verbals must still be used (For example: "I call forth a
Dragon's Breath! Page I Dragon's Breath you!" or "Prepare to die! Page
I slay you!"). Additionally, under the same conditions a page may be
struck for damage by adding "Page" to the damage call (ie, "Page, 4
normal!"). The damage called may never exceed that which the player
could normally deal in a single blow.

In response to any of the above, a page may call any legal
defenses they have at their disposal.

---------------

If there are two people boffer fighting then the page must stay ten feet away. But I argue that someone standing 5 feet away and announcing actions is not active combat. Your interpertation indicates that a page must maintain a ten foot bubble away from all people or face breaking the rules if someone decides to attack them as it must be done within five feet.
 
Masticon;19632 said:
...They must
stay at least ten feet from any active combat zone...

---------------

If there are two people boffer fighting then the page must stay ten feet away. But I argue that someone standing 5 feet away and announcing actions is not active combat. Your interpertation indicates that a page must maintain a ten foot bubble away from all people or face breaking the rules if someone decides to attack them as it must be done within five feet.
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Note: quoted text trimmed for length.

Here is the way I see it:

1) An active combat zone is someone attacking another someone
2) Pages must actively maintain a 10 foot distance from active combat zones
3) In order to attack the page (an active combat zone as defined in 1) with an in-game effect you must come within 5 feet of the page (which violates 2)

You move in to attack the Page, which breaks the 10 foot distance rule that pages must observe by moving to the five-foot distance that non-pages must observe. By this, the active combat zone is brought to the page, so the page must make safely moving out of that zone their highest priority.

By not attempting to flee to a distance of greater than 10 feet, they are then not practicing safe page combat as per the rules. Dare I say that taking the time to retaliate in lieu of fleeing would be a willful violation of their safe combat rules, and therefor possibly just as punishable as physically striking a page.

This is the way I enterpret it, though. I am also not a marshall (just a concerned player).
 
Johnathan Lancaster;19633 said:
Note: quoted text trimmed for length.

Here is the way I see it:

1) An active combat zone is someone attacking another someone
2) Pages must actively maintain a 10 foot distance from active combat zones
3) In order to attack the page (an active combat zone as defined in 1) with an in-game effect you must come within 5 feet of the page (which violates 2)

You move in to attack the Page, which breaks the 10 foot distance rule that pages must observe by moving to the five-foot distance that non-pages must observe. By this, the active combat zone is brought to the page, so the page must make safely moving out of that zone their highest priority.

By not attempting to flee to a distance of greater than 10 feet, they are then not practicing safe page combat as per the rules. Dare I say that taking the time to retaliate in lieu of fleeing would be a willful violation of their safe combat rules, and therefor possibly just as punishable as physically striking a page.

This is the way I enterpret it, though. I am also not a marshall (just a concerned player).
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Thats more or less the way it was written to be. Basicly its trying to force the page to get away from the people with the foam pipes.
 
Yup... that's the way I see it too. Attacking a page is supposed to FORCE the page into a situation of retreat. I'm all for allowing a few seconds for it to sink in if they need it, but they should definitely be moving by the second damage call.
 
Hmmm...I would have to say I am reading it the same way Marc is. I read an active combat zone to be any large area of combat, not a single individual getting within a 10ft zone. If that were the case it pretty much means that the page rules allow pages to get attacked, but not attack back. And thats really lame. In that case so long as the attacker stays within 10 ft the page cannot defend themselves. So no matter what level they are or how many spells or alchemy they have, they will die everytime unless they can run really fast.
 
Then they'd better hope they can either run really fast or get the knack of not drawing negative attention to themselves.

Seriously, it hasn't been a problem up to now so don't make it into one. It's not like pages have been regularly dropping dead over this- or really, dying much at all.
 
Nah, but wouldn't it be fun? ;)

I am looking at how to bring the advanced page rules better in line with the non-advanced page rules and make sure the standardized advanced page test is available at all events and gamedays.
 
Shikar al'Basteua;19641 said:
Seriously, it hasn't been a problem up to now so don't make it into one. It's not like pages have been regularly dropping dead over this- or really, dying much at all.
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Clearly this has been somewhat of a problem as we've had a number of people note issues with the way pages are currently working in the game. This means either:
A) Virtually every packet page has been breaking the rules.
or
B) The rules as they are written do not clearly indicate the writer's intent.

We can complain about unclear rules in the rulebook all we want and not expect them to be changed but when we're talking about our own homegrown rules we should do our best to make them clear as possible.

While I'm glad that we have posted page rules it does seem that the packet page piece was more of an afterthought than being fully incorporated into the rules. I look forward to seeing a revision to clarify the issues brought up in this thread.
 
Don't twist my words. My post was in direct response to Holly's concerns regarding the survivability of paiges in combat, to which I responded that they don't have survivability in combat. They aren't supposed to. When confronted directly with violence they run or they die. Though I appreciate that other valid issues have been brought up in the thread I stand by my statement that this particular concern has not been a problem up to now and will continue to be a nonissue in the future as long as it is not blown out of proportion by players on which it has no effect.

The paige rules are being misrepresented with the assumption that they are designed to give paiges an equal footing with other adventurers (or otherwise induce some sense of 'fairness'). In truth they aren't; they're just there to give the ones who have taken the time to learn the system better a chance to experience more of the game until they are at an age to participate fully.

In any case, Bryan has said he's going to take a look at things, so really that should be the end of this until such a time as the rules are either clarified or allowed to stand as is.
 
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