Odd Power Curve

M

mikestrauss

Squire
Having clarified the rules on purchasing back attacks / critical attacks (thanks to those who responded), I noticed an odd power curve in the rules. It only occurs if you have magic items that are powered by back attacks or critical attacks (I think).

Basically, if you have those type of magic items, you have two options.

Option 1: Lose magic item functionality when you trade in to get a back stab or proficiency.

Option 2: Delay trading in until you have earned enough build to maintain functionality of those items (this could easily be about a level and a half worth depending on what you have)

Now, let me say, I actually appreciate that magic items are more tied to skills and that they are less dominant in this upcoming edition. However, I still think this power curve is problematic. Losing functionality wouldn't be a problem if magic items had unlimited duration, but they all have limited duration, which means that players lose out on enjoying hard earned treasure.

Delaying character growth wouldn't be so bad except that spell casters don't face a similar dilemma as they gain build. Their magic items never lose functionality this way and they never have to delay build expenditures to maintain growth.

When pointing out a problem it is best to also make a suggestion for a solution, but honestly, I don't have one. I just think that the curve should be smoothed a bit, if at all possible. Maybe it isn't and maybe the system is otherwise elegant enough to make this oddity acceptable. I just would love to know if anyone who designed this considered this and considered options to smooth this power curve.

-MS

P.S. - If magic items have been switched from expiration dates to logistics periods used, feel free to ignore this, because that solves the problem well enough.
 
This situation as you describe it definitely exists, and a character with no (critical attacks/back attacks/spells/etc) is definitely going to be limited in what kind of magic items they have access to.

I don't necessarily agree that this is a problem really, as critical attacks and back attacks have been given a great deal of power in their own right, and are likely to be highly sought after as more than Prof/Stab fodder. For those who choose not to buy/keep them, magic items are going to have to factor into that decision.

One of the things that I think we need to get used to is that character building is going to look a lot different, especially in the early to mid levels, but to some degree across the board.
 
I've done some of my own build exploration with this system, and here's my thoughts.

1) I would never, personally, buy more than three Profs. If I'm using a two-handed Fighter/Scout, I might only buy two, to be honest. If I was going straight rogue, 4 Backstabs. Scout? 3 Profs, no BS. Just loads of BA.

2) The reason for #1 is because I like swinging 5s. Supa-ez math. Going from 5 to 10 would require -such a gigantic investment of build- that I feel that Crits/BA are far more cost efficient, and the amount I'd save would allow me to choose which fights I want to "go big" on. Probably mods, or critical moments in town fights. I think swinging 10s, sometimes 15s, and having a MI that let me jack up to 20s in a -really- bad situation would be perfectly fine.

So, this whole "Pool of CA/BA" thing? I'm totally comfortable with it, because I know it's ultimately better for the game, and because I can still choose to have "epic" moments. Heck, even a lowbie can choose to "go big" in a town fight, surrounded by his seniors. You won't be able to just dismiss a guy you don't know so well, he might just have that tank of power he's been holding for a moment like this.

I like it, personally. Currently, the stars of a game tend to -always- be the stars of the game. And if they're using some of their power to fuel their MIs, it'll give other folks the opportunity to step up and dish some damage, too.
 
I'm curious to see if that happens, because frankly I suspect it will trend more to the stars going on less day mods so as to still be at peak power for the 'important' fights where the big loot drops.
 
Muir said:
I'm curious to see if that happens, because frankly I suspect it will trend more to the stars going on less day mods so as to still be at peak power for the 'important' fights where the big loot drops.
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Weird that your big loot drops happen at specific fights. Maybe someone should recommend to your Plot team to ensure that big loot drops happen randomly on day mods, too.
 
So I'm not sure how it is other places, but where I play what usually happens is there's a big fight Friday night (sometimes Saturday right after lunch), then 6 pm logistics, then the BIG big town fight. So everyone has just gotten their skills back when the "important" fight happens anyway. In any case, I'm not sure the new CA/BA thing will greatly affect whether people choose to *go* on fewer mods during the day, since the big fighter could go on the mod and just choose to swing his prof based 5s/10s /whatever and not activate the crit attacks.
 
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Draven said:
Weird that your big loot drops happen at specific fights. Maybe someone should recommend to your Plot team to ensure that big loot drops happen randomly on day mods, too.
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I think it rubbed off from decades of D&D as reinforced by MMOs. The big nasty monsters should be guarding the big awesome treasures, otherwise the adventurers feel poorly done by.
 
Draven said:
Weird that your big loot drops happen at specific fights. Maybe someone should recommend to your Plot team to ensure that big loot drops happen randomly on day mods, too.
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Muir said:
I think it rubbed off from decades of D&D as reinforced by MMOs. The big nasty monsters should be guarding the big awesome treasures, otherwise the adventurers feel poorly done by.
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When you put "big loot" on a mod your only allowing up to 6 people to have access to it and decide its fate. At least with a town battle, all have an opportunity to have a grab at it.
 
Gilwing said:
When you put "big loot" on a mod your only allowing up to 6 people to have access to it and decide its fate. At least with a town battle, all have an opportunity to have a grab at it.
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I'm not entirely sure that's true. While it's somehow possible for a low/midbie to somehow be near the BBG to loot it, I expect this is practically a non-event.

For a mod? That can rely entirely on who ends up going on the mod. That means that any team had the opportunity to find the golden ticket, as it were, but -someone- had to get lucky.
 
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
The obvious solution to loot hording is to eliminate big ticket loot items in favor of more, smaller options, which can be more easily spread throughout the weekend.
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I take that one bit further. Items should be very rare drops, and generally plot items if anything.

Drop more coin, and more stuff that has no real game value but is merchantable. Coin's a lot more expensive than just printing more MI tags and handing out decorative stone reps, true, but it could definitely (at least locally) use some efforts to revitalize its value as compared to the standard of economic exchange being the ritual component. I know I, and several other PCs I know, sit on fair stacks of coin that doesn't move in the economy for months or -years- because the primary use for it is to bid on MI auctions at this point.

Means you need to make sure that there's also a place to spend it, but it's not to hard to set up an in-game merchant that has a lot of the items PCs want, and prices them just high enough that a dedicated PC crafter can undercut them and still make a profit if they want to become the new guy known for selling a particular thing. A fantasy game economy is difficult, but it's still something we should be putting minimal effort into.
 
Make a nationalized ID list for non-coin valuables. The west coast uses one standard list; plot has a version for making reps, players have a different version for IDing them. It makes gems transferable...
 
My primary character never had any wealth or power, mainly because big loot drops (at the time) were handed out on high-powered mods. Being a mid-level character in a long-running chapter dominated by higher level PCs meant that I was scaled out of such mods. And the scaling got worse each time a powerful PC got a treasure that made him more powerful.

And when only the BBG is carrying anything of real value in a large battle, we all know how hard it is for anyone who isn't swinging with a damage aura to even get into the donut of death. So I didn't benefit from those treasure hand-outs either. The only way to get to the BBG's treasure was if you already had treasure (in this case, magic weapons created by ritual scrolls) from a previous endeavor.

The few magic items I had were from NPCing, and I scrounged up my breakfast money by waking up at 6am and searching through the grass where the previous night's battles were fought.

I would often need to play for 3 events before I had enough coin to pay a blacksmith to strengthen a shield or silver a weapon. That's how broke I was.

Even the baronial court my character belonged to was poor. We were a bungling conglomerate of misfits, and compared to the other baronies, we couldn't even hold our own. Heck...we didn't even have a baron.

What's the point?

If you're not in the demographic that has the ability to kill the monster with the treasure, it doesn't matter when and where plot drops it.

Your chances of gathering the greater share of the wealth increase exponentially as you gain power, because the more power you have, the more power you gain. Then monster camp has to send out adversaries it knows will be able to challenge the most powerful characters present in the game, making it less likely for a character who didn't get the treasure the last time ever getting the treasure the next time.

Note that I said less likely...not impossible.
 
Huh. Maybe we're a bunch of commies out in the Midwest but typically after a big town battle we'll auction off whatever was found. Sure, people pocket stuff, but there's usually a community expectation IG that anything found is community property. There's still a concentration of wealth that sits with the long-running higher-level characters (admittedly my main character's group is one of the two richest in town), but it gives everyone a shot at getting the Cool Thing that dropped, and it gives everyone who didn't get it a share of the money.
 
Y'know, as my previous character, I had a hell of a time bringing in any coin or treasure without making and selling fudge. It sucked. But she was also not the social butterfly my current primary is. She was a healer, always in the background, and never with a solid team or large groups of friends.

My current primary has a team... but that's not what's enabled her to be able to access whatever magic items or scrolls she's interested in. I go out with her and do things with as many people as possible, my group or not. I help out, and hand out things. When I actually want something, there's not a lot of griping, because I honestly just pass on most things.

Couple that with an in game atmosphere of everyone either agreeing to a bag or not, which they usually do, and auctioning off things at the end, and the coin gets spread around. Didn't get the item this time? Save your cash, there will be another. I've watched 1st level characters walk out of one loot split with 5+ gold.

Loot spread isn't just about treasure distribution from the staff. It's also about in game atmosphere, social dynamics, and personal responsibility. If things suck at your game, try to change the things you can.
 
My primary regularly gets very little loot, and most of what he gets ends up being shelled out to newer members of the community. That's not too big a deal for him or me. Dude makes use with what he has, and when he's out, folks are on their own.

I don't expect that'll change -too- much once the changes go into place. There's only a couple ritual effects that he'll really want access to.
 
KyleSchmelz said:
Huh. Maybe we're a bunch of commies out in the Midwest but typically after a big town battle we'll auction off whatever was found. Sure, people pocket stuff, but there's usually a community expectation IG that anything found is community property. There's still a concentration of wealth that sits with the long-running higher-level characters (admittedly my main character's group is one of the two richest in town), but it gives everyone a shot at getting the Cool Thing that dropped, and it gives everyone who didn't get it a share of the money.
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I don't know if you notice, Liam, but I actually find the auction strategy is even worse.

If a good drop happens, it almost inevitably lands on one of the Kings of Town unless it's something they don't want. Why? Because they are travelling players who have chosen to invest a lot of time and effort into the game, and as such have the in-game resources to out-bid pretty much anyone when they care to. Mind you, this isn't me blaming those players, that's the position the system puts them in, but as we've seen over the years it has a natural consequence in terms of accumulation of power.
 
Hey. Heeeeeeeey.

We've gone from a question on new builds and magic item utilization to a back and forth on loot distro philosophy.

Focus. Focuuuuus.

Also, Mike, I didn't see your PS before, but I do believe that this is the case, going from timed expiration to number of activations.
 
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