Order of defenses

[Polare]

I'm clarifying something about defenses and want to make sure that what I'm saying is correct in all cases.

There are four categories of defenses. "External" defenses operate beyond the scope of a character's body, while "Internal" defenses are part of a character's body. "Smart" defenses can be used at will (number of times/day, normally) while "dumb" defenses MUST be used the first time that an applicable effect gets to them.

When considering the order of defenses called, it would be:
Smart external defenses can be used first
Dumb external defenses MUST be used next
Smart internal defenses can be used next
Dumb internal defenses MUST be used next

Examples of the above would be a Bane/Cloak/Dodge/Parry/Riposte for a smart external defense, a Spell Shield/Magic Armor/Poison Shield for a dumb external defense, a Resist (something) for a smart internal defense, and... well, I can't think of a good example for a dumb internal defense but I do recall seeing monster cards that had resist-type things that had to be used the first few times they were hit (long ago, though).

Joe has a Cloak vs Fire, a Dodge, a Spell shield, and a Resist Element. He's hit by a "Flame Bolt". He can choose to use the Cloak vs Fire and preserve both the Spell Shield and the Resist Element (as well as the dodge). He could likewise use the dodge and save the other 3. He can let the Spell Shield take it, and choose not to use the Cloak vs Fire or the dodge. But he cannot use the Resist Element because the "dumb external" defense takes it before it even gets to where he can resist it.

Correct?

-Bryan

 

[jpariury]

There is no delineation of Internal vs. External defenses outlined in the rules. I'll also need to review my scroll db when I get home, but I see no references to being allowed to call "smart" defenses prior to "dumb" ones in the rulebook. While I am aware that many players consider this to be allowed, the terminology in the rulebook ("This spell protects the recipient from the next effect with the word...") appears to imply that in all cases, dumb defenses go before smart ones.

 

[Maxondaerth]

I have ruled (and been ruled, but mostly in Oregon) that dumb externals must be used first. Example: If I have a poison shield up and a resist poison, if I use the resist first, then it is assumed that the poison shield got flubbed. Same being true for Dodge and spell shield. This may be a thing of the past, or it may be that the current Rules staff is interpreting different, but that's been my experience and the way I've played. Just input.

Jeff

 

[Polare]

If I recall correctly, the distinction between "internal" and "external" has been ruled on in the past through the fact that Resists cannot be used before "external" defenses.

So the real question is "do Spell Shields/Magic Armors/ Poison Shields *always* go off before anything else?". It would seem rather silly that a Spell Shield would go off before a Dodge could be used, for instance, since IG the spell never hit.

It would be nice to have a consistent ruling on this since I've seen it ruled both ways...

-Bryan

 

[Shikar al'Basteua]

From the cloak and bane scrolls:

"The Cloak may be used prior to the loss of a protective such as Reflect Magic, Spell Shield, Poison Shield, Elemental Shield or Magic Armor if the possessor so chooses."

I'm not sure about resists; I'll check as soon as I get to a book.

-Dan

 

[Avaran]

What about Parry and Riposte being used before/after, say, a Magic Armor? Again since in-game, the blow wouldn't have hit for the "dumb defense" to go off.

<--curious

 

[Anonymous]

Per the description of all the resists, you must call spell defences before you call the resist.
I've always (with a few independant instances) have seen it done that some abilities (dodge, reposte, parry, etc) have the choice of going off whenever. Spell defences state that the next blow sets them off, and resist must be used after. It doesn't actually say anywhere in the addendum or book as far as I can find , however, that if you're hit by something that you may call a dodge before Spell Shield or magic armor. Weird.
~Matt

 

[Balryn]

It doesn't actually say anywhere in the addendum or book as far as I can find , however, that if you're hit by something that you may call a dodge before Spell Shield or magic armor. Weird.
~Matt

I can't really think of anytime I would want to blow a dodge BEFORE a spellshield or magic armor? The only time I could think of it if you were fighting creatures with entagle- you could dodge the first one and then keep a spell shield active if you got hit by a second entangle (which would have very limited use, since you would have to be expecting to get hit by a spell or whatever AFTER you got entangled)

Dodge should 99.9% of the time be used as the last ditch defense as it protects against everything.

Can you think of some other time you would prefer to use a dodge over a more limited defense?

Barry

 

[Anonymous]

I have ruled (and been ruled, but mostly in Oregon) that dumb externals must be used first. Example: If I have a poison shield up and a resist poison, if I use the resist first, then it is assumed that the poison shield got flubbed. Same being true for Dodge and spell shield. This may be a thing of the past, or it may be that the current Rules staff is interpreting different, but that's been my experience and the way I've played. Just input.

Jeff

Nope. You can dodge at any time, regardless of what protectives you have up, and save your shield spells. For instance:
Evil Caster: blah blah Disarm!
Smart Hobling: (knowing that the big boom is coming after the disarm) Dodge!
Evil Caster: blah blah Death!
Smart Hobling: AHA! Spell Shield.

I believe in the case of the poison shield though, you are correct.

 

[Polare]

OK. So we've established at least one definite ruling:

1. Bane and Cloak specifically CAN be used before "dumb external" defenses.

But there are some questions up in the air which I'd like a final ruling on from Seattle staff:

1. May a Dodge be used before other defenses?
2. May a Resist be used before other defenses? If not, how is this different from Dodge?
3. Ditto for Parry
4. Ditto for Riposte
5. Ditto for Spell Parry

Common sense answers for most of these are rather obvious (especially Dodge) but it would be nice to know for sure.

-Bryan

 

[Anonymous]

Like I said, for number 2, per the description of the skill Resist X, you must call protectives before you are allowed to use a resist.

 

[Polare]

Like I said, for number 2, per the description of the skill Resist X, you must call protectives before you are allowed to use a resist.

Whoops. Meant to include that in my special list above. Thanks

-Bryan

 

[Anonymous]

OK. So we've established at least one definite ruling:

1. Bane and Cloak specifically CAN be used before "dumb external" defenses.

But there are some questions up in the air which I'd like a final ruling on from Seattle staff:

1. May a Dodge be used before other defenses?
2. May a Resist be used before other defenses? If not, how is this different from Dodge?
3. Ditto for Parry
4. Ditto for Riposte
5. Ditto for Spell Parry

Common sense answers for most of these are rather obvious (especially Dodge) but it would be nice to know for sure.

-Bryan

To my knowledge you can ALWAYS Dodge as long as the situation allows for it (for instance, you cannot Dodge a Waylay per the rules). For instance.

Rogue 1: 10 Normal, 90 Assassinate.
Rogue 2: Dodge/Evade, Magica Armor.

 

[Anonymous]

That's the assumption, and has been for quite a while. The problem is, it doesn't say that you can do that in the book.

 

[Balryn]

That's the assumption, and has been for quite a while. The problem is, it doesn't say that you can do that in the book.

I know it's an assumption, but I'll ask why? Why would anyone want to DODGE an effect before using a dumb resist? Except for when immobilized and your are helpless anyhow, a dodge should be the last thing that is used in your line of defense calls (as it is the most powerful and all-encompassing protection ability)

~Barry

 

[Kauss]

I know it's an assumption, but I'll ask why? Why would anyone want to DODGE an effect before using a dumb resist? Except for when immobilized and your are helpless anyhow, a dodge should be the last thing that is used in your line of defense calls (as it is the most powerful and all-encompassing protection ability)

~Barry

well, just the event that comes off the top of my head, you know the things your fighting has a voice ability like voice death, and you have a dodge and a spellshield. Since dodge will not work on a voice effect, you may well want to use the dodge against some spell it casts, so you have the spell shield left for the voice ability.

 

[Balryn]

well, just the event that comes off the top of my head, you know the things your fighting has a voice ability like voice death, and you have a dodge and a spellshield. Since dodge will not work on a voice effect, you may well want to use the dodge against some spell it casts, so you have the spell shield left for the voice ability.

Okay... I can't really argue on voice carriers because I can't find them in the book. I thought they were all taken out. I haven't heard anything use a voice effect in a long time because it used to conflict with so many rules. Is it in an errata?

~Barry

 

[Seattle_Jim]

Okay... I can't really argue on voice carriers because I can't find them in the book. I thought they were all taken out. I haven't heard anything use a voice effect in a long time because it used to conflict with so many rules. Is it in an errata?

~Barry

It is an LCO effect used occasionally. The FearMonger used it as did the Blindman.

 

[Balryn]

It is an LCO effect used occasionally. The FearMonger used it as did the Blindman.

Well besides LCO effects (which I don't know whether they can be dodged in Seattle or not <they could be dodged back in 6th>), I can't think of any other effect that wouldn't keep your dodge as the last key defense you have.

~B

 

[Kauss]

Okay... I can't really argue on voice carriers because I can't find them in the book. I thought they were all taken out. I haven't heard anything use a voice effect in a long time because it used to conflict with so many rules. Is it in an errata?

~Barry

actally, tho voice is LCO here, there is a little note about voice delivered attacks in the rulebook, and how they can not be dodged (neither can radius attacks as well) found on page 54, deliveries, radius.