Proposal: Reduce Negation abilities

Back to the proposal on hand, having lower than "no" may not be a bad thing, but I think it would need to be handled in a similar way to ripping free now. Ripping free is simple, effective, visible, and doesn't require a lot of mental processing. A "shake it off" for Commands, and some similar mechanic for other effects would likely be a better way of restructuring things for what I term "toggle effects", those effects that take you out of a fight. As for damage, the current Evade idea of removing the carrier from the attack I think is the most elegant. It's simple, low processing, and visible (due to the Evade call).
 
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I just built a Hobling Scout (447 build) with OHE, Stylemaster, Parryx1, Profx3, BackStabx4, and Racial Dodge x 27 - the single Parry is for 30 Spell Parry defenses (if current mechanic\conversion conventions hold).

5 from the front, 15 from behind (all day) and then good luck hitting this character.

Seems good.

13 from the back.
 
You're right, I can't math today. X_x

But either way, 27 or 24 dodges per day...I mean, if Constant Damage is as good as they say it is...what else would one need?

Honestly? I'd just have a Fighter who could keep up with you (I know I can't, but we have to assume that all things are equal here), and build them with heavy amounts of Crit Attacks, 3 Weapon Profs, and Fighter Skills to fill them out. 30 CA is +5 damage for an hour of combat. Sure, their Stuns/Slays/Evis won't land, but they'll grind you down with superior Body and potentially Armor, since armor phys reps are about to change.

:-|

Your build would be pretty solid for harassing packet chuckers and "tanking" takeouts, though I think I'd eat a few more Dodges for Read Magic and a level 1 Celestial for Spell Shield scrolls, but that's just me.
 
I just built a Hobling Scout (447 build) with OHE, Stylemaster, Parryx1, Profx3, BackStabx4, and Racial Dodge x 27 - the single Parry is for 30 Spell Parry defenses (if current mechanic\conversion conventions hold).

5 from the front, 15 from behind (all day) and then good luck hitting this character.

Seems good.
Why Scout?
Hobling Fighter
OHE, style master (for some reason), +8 Prof, Parry x1, Racial Dodge x20, Read and Write, Herbal Lore, Alchemy x3, free build x5 (save for read magic)
Swing 10 all day with a bit more body and armor and have your Spell Parries.
 
I feel like with that many dodges and spell parries, you may want to trade in 3 of those dodges for 6 more parries and 6 more free build.
 
[In regards to Hobling Scout and/or Fighter]

It is a strangely beautiful build, but once again, it feels like the value of the build is being based on questionable metrics.

The first "counter" I saw anyone mention was another PC build, which doesn't make sense to me. The game isn't built with PvP in mind. It is built for PvE. Figuring out what PCs demolish it and what PCs fall to it doesn't seem meaningful.

The character is also level 44. I can't speak for every chapter in the game, but the HQ average player level at events, last I saw, was in the high teens. I suspect it is in the low 20s by now. I'd be surprised if any game is much higher than that, let alone in the 40s. Yes some characters are in the 40s, but average is lower by a far margin.

However, I am feeling charitable, so I will work with that level 44 character. Such a character should be facing opponents that are a reasonable challenge to a level 44 character. That means crunchy monsters in the low to mid 30 equivalency (you face a lot of them during the day, so they shouldn't be equivalent in level), a few "lieutenants" roughly equivalent to a level 40, and an occasional "boss" (not big bad) of roughly level 50 or so to deal with.

For ease, I will only consider the lowest tier there for now. The database has few crunch-style monsters that are higher than teens, but it is pretty easy to extrapolate what a roughly level 30 equivalency crunch-style monster would look like (it helps that I have a lot of behind desk experience). I'm probably being a little conservative here, but I'd say roughly:

60 body, Claws, Swings 10 Sleep, 1 Parry, 1 Resist Poison, 2 Resist Command

It has a few negations, but not a complete set and low in number (just enough to require a little extra effort). More importantly it has a modest damage carrier attack. And like I said, I think I am actually being a little conservative here (but this feels approximately reasonable). The key to note is I think this a relatively standard crunch-style monster of about level 30 equivalency and it would all but ignore 200 build of the PC you made. You could dodge a carrier attack (and probably will be forced to once your armor falls in 2 or 3 blows... depending on class), but that is a very inefficient use of a dodge (especially when a 2-3 cost skill would work almost just as well).

I'm not trying to say that is the only possible build for a high level crunch-style monster, just that there are whole aspects of monster design that this Hobling PC pretty much ignores, due to a hyper focus on one-shot / daily effects. I applaud any design where a player will shine against specific types of monsters, but I wholeheartedly disagree that this design is universally efficient or "unbeatable." Honestly, it feels to me like it was built primarily to combat other PCs and, while that is fine, I don't believe it is a metric that should be used to determine whether the system is functioning.

-MS
 
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I actually assumed on the build that the only source of offense was intended to be Constant Damage (to make your point that it's that good, after all, and any other offensive purchases would be unnecessarily extraneous, because it's that good, right?), so I didn't recommend Alc 3, since you don't need Alc to drink a Poison Shield.

Because Constant Damage is that good!
 
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If Constant Damage is so good, then I should be able to reach 5/15 with a Scout and then just spend everything else in Defense because...Constant Damage is supposed to be that good, right?

I'm not sure that's a good representation of the reasoning behind lowering/scaling constant damage. It's a more complex chain of thought than just "it's too good!" (and in fact "too good" isn't really part of the equation at all), but let me try to give some additional insight into the reasoning (since there's misunderstandings among playtesters like it was changed because it was "too good").

When talking about "constant damage" we are specifically referring to 4 things: Rituals (DA/Slayer/Reaver), Backstabs, Weapon Proficiencies, and Wands. Wands technically have a limitation in usage that the other ones don't, but at higher level that limit is less impactful, so we're considering it as "constant damage" for the purposes of this discussion.

The idea behind lowering constant damage is not because it's "too good". Unlimited Magic Items are "too good" - hundreds of Cloaks/Banes/Expanded Enchantments on the same character is what I'm referring to here - but constant damage isn't "too good". Instead, constant damage warps the game. Your primary character swings 20+ and (not uncommonly with the right rits) throws for 40+ damage from a bow, with every single shot. My primary character throws about 20s from his wand, with every single shot. The only realistic way to deal with that (outside of "gimmicks" on a single monster type here and there), from a statting perspective, is to jack up the Body Points on our enemies.

20 years ago, 9th level damage spells and Slay/Eviscerate (or their equivalents) still existed (and in terms of damage spells were actually more powerful than they are today). They were used and landed fairly often. Landing 40 - 100 damage was hugely impactful, because the body totals were a fraction of what they are today. In the current Alliance game, it's the opposite. Landing a single shot for 40 - 100 damage is generally either negated or (more likely) kind of useless at high levels. Why? Because players can do that much in one or two shots of constant damage. "Moderate" crunchies against high level players regularly come out with 200-400 body these days. It's not to keep up with the Slays or Assassinates or Dragon's Breaths, it's to keep up with the Wand charges of 20 and the weapon swings of 20-40 that happen with every single attack over and over all day long.

There are 2 primary reasons this body bloat (and it's accelerating over the years, not slowing down) is (at least from some perspectives) "bad" for the game:

1. It significantly devalues "burst" damage. At high level, burst damage is almost entirely overshadowed by takeouts. There are multiple reasons for this, but a significant contributer is that body bloat has reached a breaking point. Why would I ever memorize an Ice Storm when I can memorize a Confine that will last at least 3 seconds, which gives me time to throw 3 Wand charges and do 60 damage (even if I'm all alone!)? Why would I ever throw a Cure Mortal Wounds against an Undead when I can throw a Purify and have my buddy swing twice with an Earth Aura'd Undead Reaver to do MORE DAMAGE than my supposedly anti-Undead spell? Evocation damage, Slays, Healing against Undead (or Necromancy damage against the Living), Assassinates, those are all intended to be major portions of the Alliance PC skillset that (barring specific cases that Plot teams have to engineer) are thrown by the wayside in high-level play today.

2. I hear two common reasons from new players who leave Alliance (often in favor of other games). The first is the complexity of the ruleset. The second is that the gap between high-level and low-level PCs is astronomical and seen as far, far too wide. This problem manifests itself in several ways. (a) A newer player's first "awesome" moment of character progression in combat is generally intended to be a burst - their first Slay, their first Flame Bolt or Dragon's Breath, etc. etc... As noted above, it's far too easy these days for that "burst" to get completely overwhelmed on the battlefield by the sheer amounts of body on even mid-level monsters. (b) It is very very easy for a player swinging 3 or 4 in their first couple of events to feel like nothing more than a speed bump on the battlefield when those 3s and 4s are completely ignored - in large part because of the body bloat mentioned above. (c) Some players are encouraged by seeing people on the field swinging 40s with every shot, and think "I want to become that!" - but many are discouraged by the 10x or 20x multiple of what they can do, with no resources expended on the part of the higher damage player. It's easy to understand a feeling of despondancy and uselessness in that case.

Plot teams can certainly try to work around these items. Some do, with varying degrees of success. But it's much harder than it should be, and quite frankly many Plot teams aren't that good at scaling in the incredibly difficult way that's needed in the current Alliance game.

Will lowering Constant Damage solve all these problems? Of course not. No one thing will. But I expect that lowering sources of constant damage from PCs will make a major, major difference. It's not a "it's too good so we have to lower it!", which is what you seem to be expressing above (perhaps a bit hyperbolically). It's that the high constant damage we see now skews the entire game around it in ways that cannot otherwise be corrected for. Swinging for 20-40 with every single swing warps the game environment in incredibly harmful ways, and the problem is only increasing over time, not decreasing.

I don't think anyone has claimed that it's the entire solution, or perfect as-is in the playtest packet (maybe it needs some tweaking, but that's why we playtest!). But my personal opinion is that if the high constant damage problem is not squashed, it will have supremely detrimental effects on the long-term health of the Alliance game even more than it has currently had.

-Bryan

PS: I will likely not come back on here to argue back and forth if that's what folks are interested in, though you are free to discuss among yourselves :) I do try my best to answer questions of intent, and that's what this seems to be.
 
I don't believe there's an issue with lowering Constant Damage. I just feel that with the plethora of KO effects in the game, which aren't really being addressed in any direct fashion, folks are going to just choose to shop at the stores that give them what they're looking for: offenses that rapidly defeat a target.
 
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I feel like the changes have gone too far, that take-outs will be inordinately valuable and will thus overshadow any value that any number of [High] Constant Damage may inherently bring.

And this circles back to the risk of bloat of Negation abilities to compensate, which will then just frustrate players into perceiving they are not having any effect.

When I was on Plot (the first time), the single biggest frustration I heard from players was how frustrated they felt from fighting "crunchies" that just soaked up per-day abilities through their defenses. In 1.3 and earlier, large quantities of Negation abilities (from Magic Armor to Riposte to Cloak to Dodge to Phase) has led to the need of characters to develop high constant damage because why invest in Burst abilities when it will just get Negated?

Root cause, to me, goes:

Q1: Why do Monsters have too much Body?
A1: Because High Constant Damage is pervasive to High Level Characters.
Q2: Why do High Level Players value High Constant Damage over Burst or Instant Take-outs?
A2: Because high Body mitigates Burst Damage to a point that it is negligible compared to High Constant Damage and are frequently mitigated by Negation abilities, and Instant Take-outs are largely mitigated by significant Negation abilities of the antagonists.
Q3: Why do antagonists have significant amounts of Negation abilities?
A3: Because Instant Take-outs remove NPCs too quickly.

This leads me to believe the chain of events that led to High Constant Damage as a pervasive "need" in Alliance are first and foremost the power of Instant Take-outs (including Burst damage like Slays/Eviscerate) is overwhelming, requiring High Level antagonists to have the ability to Negate those abilities that players invested XP into, which lead to increasing the value of High Constant Damage, that led to antagonists having High Body to compensate.

Since we are unlikely to remove or alter the Instant Take-outs, to me it seems a potentially more successful means of breaking the chain is to reduce Negation abilities (or alter them so they don't Negate, but instead Alter). This won't lower damage, but could allow a softening of the 2.0 rule.
 
  • Plot Teams commit to resisting body bloat
    • This means that Body should stay relatively constant over the course of a campaign. Some changes up or down are certainly warranted once a Plot Team gets a feel for its player base, but in general I feel that more Constant Body would hopefully allow PC's in the chapter to decide that they can spread their build out more and not specialize as much because they only need to swing 5 or 10 instead of 15 or 20. I think a lot of times there's an unspoken arms race between Plot and Players where Plot sees that Player damage is going up, so they give their monsters more body, then the Players see the body totals going up, and feel like they have to keep buying damage to keep up.

Unfortunately I don't have time to reply to your post in-depth, but I wanted to talk specifically about this one item. We want players to build their characters to be enjoyable for play across the Alliance, not in one specific campaign or chapter. I've played with great Plot teams and poor Plot teams (in terms of scaling) and - based on the entirety of my Alliance experience - leaving this arms race that you so excellently describe solely in the hands of Plot to resolve is a poor answer to the problem. That arms race between PC constant damage and NPC body bloat totally exists - and totally wrecks scaling in many, MANY campaigns. It's precisely what has led to this point we're at now - and, projecting forward another 5-10 years, will become incredibly difficult to scale around no matter how good a Plot team you have.

We're a National game. If one chapter starts beefing up its NPC body because that's the Plot team's answer to PC constant damage, nearby chapters will feel the effects. We're at a point where I feel there has to be an Alliance-wide Rules answer to the constant damage, because otherwise it just keeps spreading and spurring more and more body bloat no matter how well any given Plot team tries to resist it.

Or, to put it another way, the current system makes it hard for Plot teams, and that will continue to get harder and harder with each year that passes. As you've noted, PC growth has accelerated considerably over the years, and the current system will only continue that trend. 20s today will become 30s in a couple years. 40s today will become 60s in a couple years. The problems those numbers create will continue to get worse, and individual Plot teams alone can't solve it - and we cannot dictate Plot (or Monster stats) across the entire Alliance. We can, however, try to address the engine that spurs that unlimited NPC body bloat all across the Alliance - which is what the damage scaling in the Playtests tries to do.

How about this for an absolute design goal I see in any major change to the Alliance system: (personal opinion!!!! not ARC!!!) Plot teams should not need to throw out 300+ Body Point "mid difficulty" creatures on a regular basis for their high level PCs to deal with just to let them last more than 5 swings against PCs.

Personal aside: Back in '07 you and I went to the week-long event at Traverse City. It was a lot of fun! But we complained about the scaling and body bloat there, which by the end of the weekend was crazy. Now, 10 years later, those amounts of body are almost standard. The best way I can see to deal with that symptom is to reduce the source - constant, unlimited high PC damage.

-Bryan

Edit postscript: One item to add - that "arms race" you mention is, in my opinion, what makes *many* players and playtesters so very leery of lowering constant damage. Because they've seen it in action for 5, 10, or 20 years, there's a very legitimate fear that after 2.0 is released Body will just balloon upwards again quickly and PCs will be stuck in the doldrums without the ability to participate in the 'arms race'. @Tantarus is a great example of this viewpoint.

History makes us gun-shy on this topic, but if we don't work towards a fix it will only get worse and worse. By scaling PC constant damage, the idea is that Plot teams will not feel that same pressure toward their side of the 'arms race' and keep Body Points significantly lowered and properly scaled into the future in a way they can't do now.
 
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