Questions about Structures and various effects

[Alavatar]

1. Can a structure with a circular base be used as the phys rep for a Circle of Power?

See: http://www.goyurt.com/models.php

1a. If yes, would any part of the structure be sticking through the CoP (since a CoP is technically a 10' high dome)? (For the purpose of this example, assume two casters work simultaneously to create a CoP for the yurt in the above reference) (I suppose potential rationale could be that the CoP goes straight up until the walls of the structure are enclosed, then the CoP curves inwards until it forms a dome with a total height of 10' at the center; but then it begs the question: what if the structure is larger than 10'?)

1b. If yes to 1a, would the structure still be capable of being the target of spells or effects from outside the CoP?

1c. If the answer to 1 is yes and 1a is no, i.e. the entire structure is enclosed by the CoP, would the building need to be a target of a Destroy Formal effect to remove the CoP? Or is the structure considered "inside" the CoP, therefore a Destroy Formal effect would not remove any potential enchantments existing on the structure?

2. Are Warder Glyphs considered to be enchanting the structure? i.e. If a doorway has a Warder Glyph and the building has a Destroy Formal effect cast would the Warder Glyph's be removed? (I am curious if a Ward defeats the purpose of Warder Glyphs, essentially)

 

[obcidian_bandit]

Here ya go:
1: Yes, a circular structure (so long as the circle is closed, if it has an open door then there's a mark/some designation that the circle exists there) is a valid target for a CoP, with exceptions (proper size/caster ratio, and see below).

1.a: If you have a few little parts sticking in/out, no big deal. See below:
1.a.i: If the circle is on the inside of the building, then the circle does not extend the full 10', it stops at the internal ceiling. (Meaning the outside is vulnerable to attack, see below).
1.a.ii. If the circle is outside of the building then the entire building must be enclosed (see 'little bits,' above). The roof is also inside.

Reasoning (see your rulebook): Circles cannot pass through solid objects. Any attempt to erect a circle with a wall/immobile object passing through it will fail, and the spell will be flubbed (see above "little bits" exception).

1b: Either the object is inside or outside, no betweensies. (See above).

1c: If the object is inside the Circle, the Circle must be dropped separately (it is its own "Structure" per the Destroy Magic rules) from a Ward or any other enchantments on the building. If the Circle is inside, it must still be dropped separately, but the building could be targeted first (the caster must have the ability to touch the target for a DM).

2: The target for a Warder Glyph is technically the archway it is on, however I've seen it ruled as "on the structure" for the purposes of an Extend ritual (because blowing an Extend on the building and a separate one on the glyph is just dumb, and you'd think that an Extend on the building counts the archways, anyways). I'd rule it that they're both on the structure for that reason, but it's really a 'per the chapter' sort of thing, consult your head of rules.

On that note, Ward doesn't defeat the purpose, there are lots of things you can do with a Warded building or a Warder Glyph that you can't do with the other thing. You could, for example, invite the 'lucky goblin' into your ward, forcing them to pass through the Paralysis Warder Glyph. Lots of fun.

 

[Alavatar]

Here ya go:
1: Yes, a circular structure (so long as the circle is closed, if it has an open door then there's a mark/some designation that the circle exists there) is a valid target for a CoP, with exceptions (proper size/caster ratio, and see below).

1.a: If you have a few little parts sticking in/out, no big deal. See below:
1.a.i: If the circle is on the inside of the building, then the circle does not extend the full 10', it stops at the internal ceiling. (Meaning the outside is vulnerable to attack, see below).
1.a.ii. If the circle is outside of the building then the entire building must be enclosed (see 'little bits,' above). The roof is also inside.

Reasoning (see your rulebook): Circles cannot pass through solid objects. Any attempt to erect a circle with a wall/immobile object passing through it will fail, and the spell will be flubbed (see above "little bits" exception).

1b: Either the object is inside or outside, no betweensies. (See above).

1c: If the object is inside the Circle, the Circle must be dropped separately (it is its own "Structure" per the Destroy Magic rules) from a Ward or any other enchantments on the building. If the Circle is inside, it must still be dropped separately, but the building could be targeted first (the caster must have the ability to touch the target for a DM).

Cool. Makes sense.

2: The target for a Warder Glyph is technically the archway it is on, however I've seen it ruled as "on the structure" for the purposes of an Extend ritual (because blowing an Extend on the building and a separate one on the glyph is just dumb, and you'd think that an Extend on the building counts the archways, anyways). I'd rule it that they're both on the structure for that reason, but it's really a 'per the chapter' sort of thing, consult your head of rules.

On that note, Ward doesn't defeat the purpose, there are lots of things you can do with a Warded building or a Warder Glyph that you can't do with the other thing. You could, for example, invite the 'lucky goblin' into your ward, forcing them to pass through the Paralysis Warder Glyph. Lots of fun.

I was thinking more along the lines of several Vengeance Warder Glyphs. So, a DF on a building would essentially destroy all of the Warder Glyphs?

 

[Alavatar]

Another question on Warder Glyphs: Since the target is technically the Archway, does the structure need to be immobile?

For instance, could a portable yurt have it's entrance Warder Glyphed and still be portable? Or, a carriage door? I would think yes on the carriage, but no on the yurt since the yurt needs to be disassembled to be transported.

Unless in the yurt's case you are actually enchanting the cloth covering, in which case it could still be transported. But, if the frame is considered to be part of the item being enchanted, similar to how the "string" of a bow is still enchanted, then I suppose that would not be a true statement.

And if the structure is sorta kinda the target and you cast a Preserve (since Extend is non-existant) on the Warder Glyph would the building be considered Rendered?

 

[obcidian_bandit]

Yes, per the scroll, the object the glyph is on must be immobile, as per the Ward description. Like Ward, you could cast a Glyph on an object like a wagon or tent, so long as it is not mobile.

If you Preserved a building, the building is effectively rendered, just like any other magic item.

A DM would destroy any Glyphs that were on the object that is being DMed. Personally, as a caster I would limit the number of Preserve/Perm scrolls that I was burning through (and you should consider that with your NPCs as well) and put them all on 'the building,' and only use one extender. That would mean that anyone with a big enough circle to get the entire building could DM them all in one go. If for some reason you had a pile of extender rits to burn, you could go through archway by archway and do them independently, but that makes less IG sense (or TP sense) economically.

 

[Alavatar]

Thanks, Matt!

As a note: my idea wasn't for NPCs.

 

[jpariury]

A DM would destroy any Glyphs that were on the object that is being DMed. Personally, as a caster I would limit the number of Preserve/Perm scrolls that I was burning through (and you should consider that with your NPCs as well) and put them all on 'the building,' and only use one extender. That would mean that anyone with a big enough circle to get the entire building could DM them all in one go. If for some reason you had a pile of extender rits to burn, you could go through archway by archway and do them independently, but that makes less IG sense (or TP sense) economically.

I would disagree that a DM on the building would remove warder glyphs cast on the entryway. The target of the ritual is the entryway, not the building. The target is not defined as "the building, which then has such-and-such effect on one of it's portals". If you can't touch the entryway for some reason, you can't effect the entryway. (Correlary: I can't walk up to the back of the tavern and cast Warder Glyph on the building, placing a "Death" glyph on the front entrance).

Short form: it's a separate target to cast it, so it's a separate target to DM it.

 

[Alavatar]

If you have a ring with a stone in it can you enchant just the stone? Can the stone be a seperate target for the purposes of rituals from the ring?

My guess is they specified "archway" so that the effect could be applied on a something that is not part of a structure, like an actual free standing archway.

But, you bring up a good point about touch the back of a building and putting up a Glyph on the front door. I have never cast a Warder Glyph; do you need to put the Circle of Power around the whole building or does it just need to exist within the Archway?

 

[elliotbay]

I'm not sure why it wouldn't need to enclose the archway. And for the going through solid objects reason, it would seem to need to enclose the building if it encloses the archway.

 

[Alavatar]

I just looked at the scroll and it says "This ritual creates a visibly marked Warder Glyph <Specific Name> over or on a doorway." This leads me to believe that since a doorway is part of a building then a DM on the building will remove all active Warder Glyphs on all doorways on the building.

It also leads me to believe that since you are enchanting the building the CoP needs to completely surround the building.

 

[jpariury]

If you have a ring with a stone in it can you enchant just the stone? Can the stone be a seperate target for the purposes of rituals from the ring?

I don't know of any reason not to allow it. Could make for a cool plot line to create a legend about a magical ring, but have it actually be the stone in the ring, which the players later find embedded in a crown, or somesuch. Great reason to use a Lore ritual as well.

But, you bring up a good point about touch the back of a building and putting up a Glyph on the front door. I have never cast a Warder Glyph; do you need to put the Circle of Power around the whole building or does it just need to exist within the Archway?

I haven't cast one as a non-spellcraft since fishtail circles were in use, but I believe you need the circle to enclose the archway. As with all rituals with a physical target, you must be able to touch the target during the casting. If you can't do that without enclosing the whole building, so be it. (Old-old-old rules: you could cast CoP with a Jesus-fish-looking rep and the circle lost all protective capabilities, but you could extend your hand outside of it to touch the targets of rituals.)

I just looked at the scroll and it says "This ritual creates a visibly marked Warder Glyph <Specific Name> over or on a doorway." This leads me to believe that since a doorway is part of a building then a DM on the building will remove all active Warder Glyphs on all doorways on the building.

Since when does a doorway have to be part of a building?

(My scroll says "portals", I suppose to allow for gates, cave entrances, and whatnot.)

 

[Alavatar]

Another question about Warder Glyphs:

On the scroll it notes the following:

If the spell caster casts Dispel Magic and then places one foot on each side of the plane of the doorway, the Warder Glyph will not detonate. This will be the case for as long as the spell caster remains in that position, even if others pass through the doorway. "

What if someone says the command phrase and straddles the doorway the same as above? Will others be able to pass through the doorway unscathed?

Rules as written seem to imply "no":

" Any person (with enough spirit to be affected by spells) who passes through the doorway must state the command phrase as the last spoken phrase before breaking the plane of the doorway. Otherwise the Glyph will attack the person with a spell or game affect defined in the table below. "

Since it doesn't specifically note the exception like it does when Dispel is used I would interpret the rules as written as "no". If asked on the spot, as a Marshal I would say, "no". But, since I have had time to think about it I have wondered what the Spirit of the Rule is and have started leaning towards "yes".

I figured I would ask for opinions on the subject here. Is it the Spirit of the Rule to allow someone who has "disabled" the Warder Glyph to be able to straddle the plane and let others pass? This would allow characters that know the command phrase to allow others to enter their building without sharing the command phrase, somewhat akin to a Ward or Wizard Lock (in that someone has to grant permission to gain entry). This is what I am leaning towards.

Or, is it the Spirit of the Rule to only allow the effect Dispel to permit straddling as noted above; perhaps for the purpose of having Warder Glyphed plot buildings more accessible to PCs or making rogue-ing a cabin with more than one person possible?

Thoughts? Opinions?

 

[Sarah]

Precedent is that only the Dispel allows people to pass through without the pass phrase.

Effectively, the Dispel is like sticking a piece of paper between the hammer and the bell on the alarm clock. (The person who cast the Dispel acting as the paper.)

Pretty expensive piece of paper, resource-wise.