Regarding Town-wide Initiatives and looting
- Thread starter Miragel
- Start date
To the nobles of the duchy of Acarthia:
With all due respect, your town-wide initiative is nothing short of laughable. The duchess might have given you permission to command the commoners and lesser nobles on the battlefield, but she made no such decree where looting rights are concerned. These rules might rightfully apply to the Town Guard and to our own distinct, honored, and decorated military, but you cannot show up in New Acarthia once a month and force the adventuring class and mercenaries to hand over their hard fought spoils of war. You simply have no jurisdiction to do so. We risk life and limb in the defense of the citizenry who are too weak to defend themselves, and we deserve what we find in the pouches of the enemy. I will not hand my loot over to some politician in the back of our ranks. Our team has our own "sweeper" who goes around during the fights, and gathers what we take down, ensuring that our fighters and healers don't have to be concerned with looting, and that no one steals from us during battle. If you are afraid of losing coin, we suggest you do the same. Thou shalt give freely and always or something, right?
Furthermore, since other nobles in the past have tried to exert their influence on the adventuring class, and tried to take what is rightfully ours, former Royal High Lord Magistrate Jefford Blasdel made this exact ruling in 398. Each combatant is entitled to the spoils of war that he or she is responsible for taking down. Stealing someone else's kill is actually theft. It sounds like the nobles are trying to legalize theft of what we deserve.
In honor and truth,
Archmage Rassiq Blackmoon
Mud and Blood Mage and sometime "sweeper"
With all due respect, your town-wide initiative is nothing short of laughable. The duchess might have given you permission to command the commoners and lesser nobles on the battlefield, but she made no such decree where looting rights are concerned. These rules might rightfully apply to the Town Guard and to our own distinct, honored, and decorated military, but you cannot show up in New Acarthia once a month and force the adventuring class and mercenaries to hand over their hard fought spoils of war. You simply have no jurisdiction to do so. We risk life and limb in the defense of the citizenry who are too weak to defend themselves, and we deserve what we find in the pouches of the enemy. I will not hand my loot over to some politician in the back of our ranks. Our team has our own "sweeper" who goes around during the fights, and gathers what we take down, ensuring that our fighters and healers don't have to be concerned with looting, and that no one steals from us during battle. If you are afraid of losing coin, we suggest you do the same. Thou shalt give freely and always or something, right?
Furthermore, since other nobles in the past have tried to exert their influence on the adventuring class, and tried to take what is rightfully ours, former Royal High Lord Magistrate Jefford Blasdel made this exact ruling in 398. Each combatant is entitled to the spoils of war that he or she is responsible for taking down. Stealing someone else's kill is actually theft. It sounds like the nobles are trying to legalize theft of what we deserve.
In honor and truth,
Archmage Rassiq Blackmoon
Mud and Blood Mage and sometime "sweeper"
Miragel
Newbie
Lagarde,
In 413 there was a great deal of testing, discussion, and input from all parties regarding the loot division. This documentation simply puts words on paper for those who have not been as involved in the loot division as say yourself or others. As I will be serving as War Chief for the upcoming gathering in New Acarthia, I am stating that the above is intended to be a guideline. It is not at this time a Baronial decree for I am sure that there will be debate and revision to these guidelines. Generally Town-wide initiatives only occur a couple times over the course of a weekend, so these guidelines and suggestions will only be in effect for those engagements.
Thank you for your questions.
--------
Archmage Rassiq Blackmoon,
I don't believe I've had the pleasure of being formally introduced to you just yet.
Well met indeed, please allow me the opportunity to respond to your commentary.
"Your town-wide initiative is nothing short of laughable"
I shall be happy to pass that comment along to interested parties.
"You cannot show up in New Acarthia once a month and force the adventuring class and mercenaries to hand over their hard fought spoils of war"
You are correct sir. I cannot in fact force anyone to do so, but I believe that you may be making some assumptions on my behalf sir. This plan is something the town has already been doing. For the last few gatherings, this system has already been in action (save for the additional bartering system for larger items) and has eliminated squabbling over division. As you have perhaps not been present, you may not have seen with your own eyes the community and equality that the good citizens of New Acarthia have espoused - even among the adventuring class. We actually devised this system to get more coin and loot to the adventurer class by forcing bidding on the larger items.
"I will not hand my loot over to some politician in the back of our ranks"
Your stance on this has been duly noted.
"Our team has our own "sweeper" who goes around during the fights, and gathers what we take down, ensuring that our fighters and healers don't have to be concerned with looting, and that no one steals from us during battle. If you are afraid of losing coin, we suggest you do the same."
As I've never had the pleasure of your wisdom and fortitude in battle, I know that you've not had the pleasure of watching New Acarthians from all walks of life gather the loot and deliver it to the individual marked for such a task. Our "Master Looter" serves as a central point for acquiring those items, ensuring that all who participated in the engagement are given as equal a share as possible - combatant, healer, and support alike. As I mentioned, this process was developed by commoner and noble together, and it only applies to the largest of engagements. I would never dream of depriving our tireless soldiers, adventurers, and combatants their portion of the spoils. The Baronial Offices welcome civil debate and discussion. I assure you, your words and commentary will indeed be taken into account.
"Each combatant is entitled to the spoils of war that he or she is responsible for taking down"
These guidelines are only in effect for one or two combats over a gathering. Smaller skirmishes are up to those participating (as noted in the document). Your comment would of course ensure that only front line aggressive fighters only see any coin. We have a whole population to consider sir.
"It sounds like the nobles are trying to legalize theft of what we deserve."
I assure you, it's quite the opposite. As previously mentioned, this is merely an expansion on the social norms that were already in place. That said, I will welcome feedback from all people who are a part of New Acarthia, yourself included.
Thank you for your input.
-------
This documentation was created in the interest of equality, and stimulating the economy of New Acarthia by putting more coin in the pockets of the adventuring class. If you have questions or comments, your inquiries are welcome here or in person.
Kindly,
Baroness K.W.Elavir
In 413 there was a great deal of testing, discussion, and input from all parties regarding the loot division. This documentation simply puts words on paper for those who have not been as involved in the loot division as say yourself or others. As I will be serving as War Chief for the upcoming gathering in New Acarthia, I am stating that the above is intended to be a guideline. It is not at this time a Baronial decree for I am sure that there will be debate and revision to these guidelines. Generally Town-wide initiatives only occur a couple times over the course of a weekend, so these guidelines and suggestions will only be in effect for those engagements.
Thank you for your questions.
--------
Archmage Rassiq Blackmoon,
I don't believe I've had the pleasure of being formally introduced to you just yet.
Well met indeed, please allow me the opportunity to respond to your commentary.
"Your town-wide initiative is nothing short of laughable"
I shall be happy to pass that comment along to interested parties.
"You cannot show up in New Acarthia once a month and force the adventuring class and mercenaries to hand over their hard fought spoils of war"
You are correct sir. I cannot in fact force anyone to do so, but I believe that you may be making some assumptions on my behalf sir. This plan is something the town has already been doing. For the last few gatherings, this system has already been in action (save for the additional bartering system for larger items) and has eliminated squabbling over division. As you have perhaps not been present, you may not have seen with your own eyes the community and equality that the good citizens of New Acarthia have espoused - even among the adventuring class. We actually devised this system to get more coin and loot to the adventurer class by forcing bidding on the larger items.
"I will not hand my loot over to some politician in the back of our ranks"
Your stance on this has been duly noted.
"Our team has our own "sweeper" who goes around during the fights, and gathers what we take down, ensuring that our fighters and healers don't have to be concerned with looting, and that no one steals from us during battle. If you are afraid of losing coin, we suggest you do the same."
As I've never had the pleasure of your wisdom and fortitude in battle, I know that you've not had the pleasure of watching New Acarthians from all walks of life gather the loot and deliver it to the individual marked for such a task. Our "Master Looter" serves as a central point for acquiring those items, ensuring that all who participated in the engagement are given as equal a share as possible - combatant, healer, and support alike. As I mentioned, this process was developed by commoner and noble together, and it only applies to the largest of engagements. I would never dream of depriving our tireless soldiers, adventurers, and combatants their portion of the spoils. The Baronial Offices welcome civil debate and discussion. I assure you, your words and commentary will indeed be taken into account.
"Each combatant is entitled to the spoils of war that he or she is responsible for taking down"
These guidelines are only in effect for one or two combats over a gathering. Smaller skirmishes are up to those participating (as noted in the document). Your comment would of course ensure that only front line aggressive fighters only see any coin. We have a whole population to consider sir.
"It sounds like the nobles are trying to legalize theft of what we deserve."
I assure you, it's quite the opposite. As previously mentioned, this is merely an expansion on the social norms that were already in place. That said, I will welcome feedback from all people who are a part of New Acarthia, yourself included.
Thank you for your input.
-------
This documentation was created in the interest of equality, and stimulating the economy of New Acarthia by putting more coin in the pockets of the adventuring class. If you have questions or comments, your inquiries are welcome here or in person.
Kindly,
Baroness K.W.Elavir
PirateFox
Scholar
While I've backed the loot splitting, I'm confused. If it's not an edict, how is it enforced by law as you mentioned originally. Something about investigation and punishment was said in your announcement. Those terms tend to catch my attention, thus my original question. Doesn't it have to be an edict to be all legal-like...Baron Rivervale had told me that it needed that stamp of approval for law enforcement? Not arguing...just don't always quite understand the laws around here and want to make sure I understand completely.
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Miragel
Newbie
Lagarde,
As always I appreciate your concern and thirst for clarity.
I shall endeavor to explain -
These guidelines seek to ensure that theft does not occur.
Please let me know if I can further explain,
Kindly,
Baroness K.W. Elavir
As always I appreciate your concern and thirst for clarity.
I shall endeavor to explain -
- These guidelines are not at this time an edict.
- The document clarifies that the loot belongs to all people from these town-wide engagements. This is not an edict, this has become a social norm that not everyone may be aware of. Stealing from an individual or stealing from the town is still stealing. Edict or not theft is a crime of Acarthia.
These guidelines seek to ensure that theft does not occur.
Please let me know if I can further explain,
Kindly,
Baroness K.W. Elavir
Fade
Newbie
As I do not usually take part in any loot split, nor am I a Baron, so I may be on the outside on this, but I will say there are two points in this I want to address:
1)"Loot division shall be based on the size of the group attending...." In my mind, we either make it equal or we don't. Simply because someone shows up on their own to help shouldn't mean they do not get a full share. The luxury of a large group should not afford an advantage in this. An individual deserves just the same as another from a large group.
2) The bidding system. It may seem that this will put more out in the hands of those who did not get a particular item, but this will end poorly. I have seen this system cause much more strife than anything else. When someone walks away with a valuable magic item or formal scroll and everyone else gets a few copper, you will see what I mean. It is not equitable in any means, and will drive people to not join a large engagement, and further encourage "unreported looting." Do I have a better solution? Maybe. The items in question should go to where they are most needed, and can be used. Barring an agreement on that, lots should be drawn since there is no other fair way. The person claiming said item then has no claim on the rest of the pot.
Where I come from, such splitting rules are not common. I do not take part in many loot splittings because I trust the people I fight beside. If my share is smaller, it is because others who needed it more could benefit from it.
As a knight, as long as my equipment is maintained, and I am able to perform my duties, the treasure is inconsequential. That we fought well, defended our people and lands, and found victory on the field is enough.
We are more than our equipment and coin purses; we need to be able to trust one another on the battlefield. If we are dividing ourselves over coin, we have much deeper problems.
Sir Egil Nordheim
Bayenna
1)"Loot division shall be based on the size of the group attending...." In my mind, we either make it equal or we don't. Simply because someone shows up on their own to help shouldn't mean they do not get a full share. The luxury of a large group should not afford an advantage in this. An individual deserves just the same as another from a large group.
2) The bidding system. It may seem that this will put more out in the hands of those who did not get a particular item, but this will end poorly. I have seen this system cause much more strife than anything else. When someone walks away with a valuable magic item or formal scroll and everyone else gets a few copper, you will see what I mean. It is not equitable in any means, and will drive people to not join a large engagement, and further encourage "unreported looting." Do I have a better solution? Maybe. The items in question should go to where they are most needed, and can be used. Barring an agreement on that, lots should be drawn since there is no other fair way. The person claiming said item then has no claim on the rest of the pot.
Where I come from, such splitting rules are not common. I do not take part in many loot splittings because I trust the people I fight beside. If my share is smaller, it is because others who needed it more could benefit from it.
As a knight, as long as my equipment is maintained, and I am able to perform my duties, the treasure is inconsequential. That we fought well, defended our people and lands, and found victory on the field is enough.
We are more than our equipment and coin purses; we need to be able to trust one another on the battlefield. If we are dividing ourselves over coin, we have much deeper problems.
Sir Egil Nordheim
Bayenna
Traceroo
Rogue
Good People,
As this is the eve of First Court in New Acarthia, perhaps we may hold our discussion until we meet in person. That will doubtlessly afford us the opportunity to work together in trust and unity toward a solution which promotes those values, and reduces the competition and mistrust which these guidelines are clearly intended to reduce. Her Excellency, our War Chief appointed by the office of Her Grace Duchess Tiberion, has invited us to discuss details with her at leisure. Let us do so in person where any disagreement is best resolved.
In service to Acarthia,
Dame Katherine Albright
Knight of Rivervale
As this is the eve of First Court in New Acarthia, perhaps we may hold our discussion until we meet in person. That will doubtlessly afford us the opportunity to work together in trust and unity toward a solution which promotes those values, and reduces the competition and mistrust which these guidelines are clearly intended to reduce. Her Excellency, our War Chief appointed by the office of Her Grace Duchess Tiberion, has invited us to discuss details with her at leisure. Let us do so in person where any disagreement is best resolved.
In service to Acarthia,
Dame Katherine Albright
Knight of Rivervale
Your excellency,
Your concept is indeed interesting... and in the efforts of fairness I appreciate what you are trying to do. However, with all due respect, it is that same fairness that Mud and Blood will continue to operate the way we always have, even in New Acarthia. We use many resources when we are in combat with our enemy and we reap what we sow.
My larger concern, as some have noticed was your use of the word "must." Perhaps it was a slight error and was more of a suggestion to those who serve under you and/or are willing to abide by your initiative.
Not only the frontline fighters see coin. You are mistaken. So do our casters, backpackers, outflankers, sweepers, and all who work together on Mud and Blood. If those in the back are not willing to sweat or bloody themselves, then perhaps they shouldn't be on the field. If they are there as support and are dragging bodies and healing, then their compatriots and teammates should reward them with that team's spoils. A single team or several teams should not have to finance the rest of the town who may not do as much.
I think you might have the theft part backwards. What we kill we are specifically entitled to. Theft occurs when someone steals the loot from someone else's kill. If Mud and Blood is there during a large fight, our sweeper will take only what we kill. If one of the citizens from your initiative loots one of our kills, we will be sure to bring up theft charges as is our right to do so. Likewise, as you mentioned, you suspected someone among your common populace looting from you. That individual should be dealt with directly and also brought up on charges. The "town" doesn't own anything together collectively... that is such a strange statement. Therefore, you can't "steal from the town."
With all due respect, my intent is not to stir up any trouble. It is to educate the common mercenary and adventurer with their rights. As I have previously mentioned... this is not the first time I have seen an edict, decree, suggestion, initiative that speaks to taking away Mud and Blood's well deserved treasure. I am only defending what is rightfully ours.
Dame Katherine,
My sincere apology for continuing this further, but Mud and Blood is in Warchester and may not be able to make it up for a discussion on this topic.
Sir Egil,
You might be the most noble among the nobles.
Archmage Rassiq Blackmoon
Mud and Blood
Your concept is indeed interesting... and in the efforts of fairness I appreciate what you are trying to do. However, with all due respect, it is that same fairness that Mud and Blood will continue to operate the way we always have, even in New Acarthia. We use many resources when we are in combat with our enemy and we reap what we sow.
My larger concern, as some have noticed was your use of the word "must." Perhaps it was a slight error and was more of a suggestion to those who serve under you and/or are willing to abide by your initiative.
Not only the frontline fighters see coin. You are mistaken. So do our casters, backpackers, outflankers, sweepers, and all who work together on Mud and Blood. If those in the back are not willing to sweat or bloody themselves, then perhaps they shouldn't be on the field. If they are there as support and are dragging bodies and healing, then their compatriots and teammates should reward them with that team's spoils. A single team or several teams should not have to finance the rest of the town who may not do as much.
I think you might have the theft part backwards. What we kill we are specifically entitled to. Theft occurs when someone steals the loot from someone else's kill. If Mud and Blood is there during a large fight, our sweeper will take only what we kill. If one of the citizens from your initiative loots one of our kills, we will be sure to bring up theft charges as is our right to do so. Likewise, as you mentioned, you suspected someone among your common populace looting from you. That individual should be dealt with directly and also brought up on charges. The "town" doesn't own anything together collectively... that is such a strange statement. Therefore, you can't "steal from the town."
With all due respect, my intent is not to stir up any trouble. It is to educate the common mercenary and adventurer with their rights. As I have previously mentioned... this is not the first time I have seen an edict, decree, suggestion, initiative that speaks to taking away Mud and Blood's well deserved treasure. I am only defending what is rightfully ours.
Dame Katherine,
My sincere apology for continuing this further, but Mud and Blood is in Warchester and may not be able to make it up for a discussion on this topic.
Sir Egil,
You might be the most noble among the nobles.
Archmage Rassiq Blackmoon
Mud and Blood
Traceroo
Rogue
Archmage Rassiq Blackmoon,
Mud and Blood has an excellent reputation within the Duchy of Acarthia for its bravery and resourcefulness. I, myself was glad for your company's help in the Battle of Wildwood in Warchester. I am relieved to know that your company continues its stalwart protection of the people on the field of battle there.
In the interest of saving both your time and extending your viewpoint to the right persons, may I suggest that you send a private missive to Sir Egil Nordheim of Bayenna, who appears to share some of your very reasonable concerns. If Mud and Blood is unable to present its case during the court in New Acarthia, you may therefore find your champion in one of the Knights of the Realm. I know that Sir Egil will make good on his word to present your case if you explain it to him directly. Then you can ensure that the common mercenary and adventurer has a voice among the knights, a voice which can speak directly, meet eye-to-eye and resolve this for the greatest benefit to all.
In the meanwhile, honors to your company, and good fortunes to you.
In service to Acarthia,
Dame Katherine Albright
Knight of Rivervale
Mud and Blood has an excellent reputation within the Duchy of Acarthia for its bravery and resourcefulness. I, myself was glad for your company's help in the Battle of Wildwood in Warchester. I am relieved to know that your company continues its stalwart protection of the people on the field of battle there.
In the interest of saving both your time and extending your viewpoint to the right persons, may I suggest that you send a private missive to Sir Egil Nordheim of Bayenna, who appears to share some of your very reasonable concerns. If Mud and Blood is unable to present its case during the court in New Acarthia, you may therefore find your champion in one of the Knights of the Realm. I know that Sir Egil will make good on his word to present your case if you explain it to him directly. Then you can ensure that the common mercenary and adventurer has a voice among the knights, a voice which can speak directly, meet eye-to-eye and resolve this for the greatest benefit to all.
In the meanwhile, honors to your company, and good fortunes to you.
In service to Acarthia,
Dame Katherine Albright
Knight of Rivervale
Re: Loot Distribution
Sir Egil,
Thank you for your contribution to this discussion My Lord. Clearly, their Excellencies asked for feedback on the new policy and you have respectfully and properly given such. With your permission I would like to present some counterpoints to the excellent points you have presented, for the benefit of all and at the suggestion of My Lady Dame Katherine I would like to do so at the gathering proper rather though this method of communication. If that pleases you please let me know what time would be most convenient for you.
-Graham Wolsey
---
Archmage Rassiq Blackmoon,
I am new to New Acarthia; in fact I have not been to the town in person before either. What you have stated is very interesting to me. You have cited Royal High Lord Magistrate Jefford Blasdel "exact ruling in 398". Do you have a copy of this decision? I studied law at the Three Spires and never came across this precedent so I'm very curious to hear it.
Regarding the topic of the laws that have actually been published and disseminated throughout Acarthia I can remember no law of "keep what you personally kill". This might be mercenary etiquette in Mud and Blood and I certainly do not wish to besmirch your group's customs, but I must say that claiming it to be a law is strange. The town killed the monsters so if someone from Mud and Blood in Warchester claimed a share of the loot then that would in fact be stealing. To claim that only those that deal a killing blow deserve a share is selfish. To add to the discussion I'd like to cite the laws of the land that might actually apply:
Embezzlement: The fraudulent conversion of personal property of another by a person in lawful possession of that property. [OOG: Player's Guide Page 48]
Essentially, this means that if one person tricks society into thinking something is theirs when its actually someone else's. As this would apply to this discussion... if I am reading the norms correctly the Barons understand it to be Embezzlement for someone to go to multiple groups and ask for a share of the loot or if the representative keeps all the loot for themselves. The representative is in lawful possession of that loot and if they were to just take it and run off without distributing it then it would be conversion by Embezzlement. Furthermore, if someone was to go to two different representatives and ask for a share of the loot from each this would be embezzlement from the double-dipper. It seems to me that their Excellencies are not making a new law or edict, but rather clarifying how Embezzlement applies in a "town-wide battle" setting.
Furthermore...
Larceny: The taking and carrying away personal property of another with the intent to permanently deprive that person of that property. [OOG: Player's Guide Page 48]
This would be the case if someone looted my kill and did not give it to the master looter or me. This is the "unreported looting" that Sir Egil has spoken about. Larceny, more commonly called "Stealing" is also clearly discouraged under penalty of law by the Baronial Guideline promulgated here.
Finally and most importantly...
Contempt: The voluntary and willful non-obeisance of an order given by one who has power to issue that order. [OOG: Player's Guide Page 48]
All law comes from his Royal Majesty. His Royal Majesty cannot be in all places at all times and so a system of feudal subservience was created to enact his will on the land. The most direct manifestation of that will is through Dukes and Duchesses. In our region of Acarthia, her Grace, Duchess Tiberion is charged with providing order and justice through the creation and administration of law in this area. Furthermore, Barons and Baronesses such as their Excellencies of Bayenna, Rivervale, Tiatar, and Warchester have the power to make and clarify laws. Finally, Knights also have the power to make and clarify laws as does the local Magistrate.
Power is hierarchical. Everyone on the list must obey the lawful orders of all nobles above them on the list. For instance, a knight must obey a baron, duchess [sic], or king; however, an adventurer is not required to obey the orders of a squire, because a squire is not a noble. Commoners owe respect to the nobles because nobles protect them against marauding monsters, ensure that there is a flowing economy, strengthen the land’s ties to the throne, and generally maintain a status quo to
keep the citizens one step away from anarchy. Because of all this hard work, if a noble gives a commoner an order, that person is obligated to obey it. Although there is no Oath of Fealty between the commoner and the noble, the relation is implied because of the services the noble provides to the commoner. [OOG: Alliance Rulebook Page 31]
To suggest that a Baron or Baroness does not have the power to issue an order regarding looting rights is arguably Contempt and punishable by law. In this case since her Excellency clarified that these are just guidelines rather than a lawful order and that she is seeking feedback on them I'm quite certain you are in no danger but the point is important for the future. This is especially true when her Excellency is empowered by Her Grace to lead and order what occurs on the battlefield (and of course that would include looting during the battle) as acting Warchieftess.
You said: "With all due respect, your town-wide initiative is nothing short of laughable. The duchess might have given you permission to command the commoners and lesser nobles on the battlefield, but she made no such decree where looting rights are concerned."
Suggesting that guidelines set forth by a noble of Acarthia is "laughable" undermines the law of the land. Mockery of a Noble Title is a crime. Suggesting that Her Grace must give permission for a Noble to give commands is also contrary to the express laws of the land. Her Grace rules of the Duchy of Acarthia and her word is law, but that does not invalidate the noble rights and privileges of their Excellency's when they do not contradict Her Grace. Your lack of manners and proper form is very disappointing from one in an organization as prestigious as Mud and Blood. Even if Her Excellency Baroness Katherine Elavir is too kind to take issue with your tone you should fix it.
---
Sir Egil,
Thank you for your contribution to this discussion My Lord. Clearly, their Excellencies asked for feedback on the new policy and you have respectfully and properly given such. With your permission I would like to present some counterpoints to the excellent points you have presented, for the benefit of all and at the suggestion of My Lady Dame Katherine I would like to do so at the gathering proper rather though this method of communication. If that pleases you please let me know what time would be most convenient for you.
-Graham Wolsey
---
Archmage Rassiq Blackmoon,
I am new to New Acarthia; in fact I have not been to the town in person before either. What you have stated is very interesting to me. You have cited Royal High Lord Magistrate Jefford Blasdel "exact ruling in 398". Do you have a copy of this decision? I studied law at the Three Spires and never came across this precedent so I'm very curious to hear it.
Regarding the topic of the laws that have actually been published and disseminated throughout Acarthia I can remember no law of "keep what you personally kill". This might be mercenary etiquette in Mud and Blood and I certainly do not wish to besmirch your group's customs, but I must say that claiming it to be a law is strange. The town killed the monsters so if someone from Mud and Blood in Warchester claimed a share of the loot then that would in fact be stealing. To claim that only those that deal a killing blow deserve a share is selfish. To add to the discussion I'd like to cite the laws of the land that might actually apply:
Embezzlement: The fraudulent conversion of personal property of another by a person in lawful possession of that property. [OOG: Player's Guide Page 48]
Essentially, this means that if one person tricks society into thinking something is theirs when its actually someone else's. As this would apply to this discussion... if I am reading the norms correctly the Barons understand it to be Embezzlement for someone to go to multiple groups and ask for a share of the loot or if the representative keeps all the loot for themselves. The representative is in lawful possession of that loot and if they were to just take it and run off without distributing it then it would be conversion by Embezzlement. Furthermore, if someone was to go to two different representatives and ask for a share of the loot from each this would be embezzlement from the double-dipper. It seems to me that their Excellencies are not making a new law or edict, but rather clarifying how Embezzlement applies in a "town-wide battle" setting.
Furthermore...
Larceny: The taking and carrying away personal property of another with the intent to permanently deprive that person of that property. [OOG: Player's Guide Page 48]
This would be the case if someone looted my kill and did not give it to the master looter or me. This is the "unreported looting" that Sir Egil has spoken about. Larceny, more commonly called "Stealing" is also clearly discouraged under penalty of law by the Baronial Guideline promulgated here.
Finally and most importantly...
Contempt: The voluntary and willful non-obeisance of an order given by one who has power to issue that order. [OOG: Player's Guide Page 48]
All law comes from his Royal Majesty. His Royal Majesty cannot be in all places at all times and so a system of feudal subservience was created to enact his will on the land. The most direct manifestation of that will is through Dukes and Duchesses. In our region of Acarthia, her Grace, Duchess Tiberion is charged with providing order and justice through the creation and administration of law in this area. Furthermore, Barons and Baronesses such as their Excellencies of Bayenna, Rivervale, Tiatar, and Warchester have the power to make and clarify laws. Finally, Knights also have the power to make and clarify laws as does the local Magistrate.
Power is hierarchical. Everyone on the list must obey the lawful orders of all nobles above them on the list. For instance, a knight must obey a baron, duchess [sic], or king; however, an adventurer is not required to obey the orders of a squire, because a squire is not a noble. Commoners owe respect to the nobles because nobles protect them against marauding monsters, ensure that there is a flowing economy, strengthen the land’s ties to the throne, and generally maintain a status quo to
keep the citizens one step away from anarchy. Because of all this hard work, if a noble gives a commoner an order, that person is obligated to obey it. Although there is no Oath of Fealty between the commoner and the noble, the relation is implied because of the services the noble provides to the commoner. [OOG: Alliance Rulebook Page 31]
To suggest that a Baron or Baroness does not have the power to issue an order regarding looting rights is arguably Contempt and punishable by law. In this case since her Excellency clarified that these are just guidelines rather than a lawful order and that she is seeking feedback on them I'm quite certain you are in no danger but the point is important for the future. This is especially true when her Excellency is empowered by Her Grace to lead and order what occurs on the battlefield (and of course that would include looting during the battle) as acting Warchieftess.
You said: "With all due respect, your town-wide initiative is nothing short of laughable. The duchess might have given you permission to command the commoners and lesser nobles on the battlefield, but she made no such decree where looting rights are concerned."
Suggesting that guidelines set forth by a noble of Acarthia is "laughable" undermines the law of the land. Mockery of a Noble Title is a crime. Suggesting that Her Grace must give permission for a Noble to give commands is also contrary to the express laws of the land. Her Grace rules of the Duchy of Acarthia and her word is law, but that does not invalidate the noble rights and privileges of their Excellency's when they do not contradict Her Grace. Your lack of manners and proper form is very disappointing from one in an organization as prestigious as Mud and Blood. Even if Her Excellency Baroness Katherine Elavir is too kind to take issue with your tone you should fix it.
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Sir Egil, you write:
"Loot division shall be based on the size of the group attending...." In my mind, we either make it equal or we don't. Simply because someone shows up on their own to help shouldn't mean they do not get a full share. The luxury of a large group should not afford an advantage in this. An individual deserves just the same as another from a large group.
I believe you may have a slight misunderstanding. The system is set up such that each individual receives an equal share. I will illustrate with an example. Suppose that 30 members of the populace participate in a town-wide engagement, and the spoils of war total 300 copper. Then if one group has, for instance, 10 people, it will receive 100 copper, which the representative of that group can further subdivide among the group such that each of its members receives 10 copper. Another group with 3 people will receive 30 copper, and that group will again subdivide that among its members, such that each member receives 10 copper. Thus, in the end, it works out to each individual receiving an equal share.
This "two-stage" process of subdivision, with the group representatives receiving the loot from the Master Looter, and then further subdividing it among their own members, serves two purposes. First, it ensures that the initial loot division goes smoothly, without having several dozen adventurers crowding the table. Second, it enables each group to more effectively coordinate which pieces of loot it receives, thus enabling each group to best outfit its members.
-Andrew the Bard
"Loot division shall be based on the size of the group attending...." In my mind, we either make it equal or we don't. Simply because someone shows up on their own to help shouldn't mean they do not get a full share. The luxury of a large group should not afford an advantage in this. An individual deserves just the same as another from a large group.
I believe you may have a slight misunderstanding. The system is set up such that each individual receives an equal share. I will illustrate with an example. Suppose that 30 members of the populace participate in a town-wide engagement, and the spoils of war total 300 copper. Then if one group has, for instance, 10 people, it will receive 100 copper, which the representative of that group can further subdivide among the group such that each of its members receives 10 copper. Another group with 3 people will receive 30 copper, and that group will again subdivide that among its members, such that each member receives 10 copper. Thus, in the end, it works out to each individual receiving an equal share.
This "two-stage" process of subdivision, with the group representatives receiving the loot from the Master Looter, and then further subdividing it among their own members, serves two purposes. First, it ensures that the initial loot division goes smoothly, without having several dozen adventurers crowding the table. Second, it enables each group to more effectively coordinate which pieces of loot it receives, thus enabling each group to best outfit its members.
-Andrew the Bard
Now I know why the scholars refer to this form of communication as the dream realms... because Graham just put us to sleep.
Why would I carry around a copy of former magistrate Blasdel's ruling? Go look it up if you're such a book worm.
Perhaps you need to get out of your Law books and onto a battlefield. It is well known practice throughout the lands that what you kill, you keep. Many teams agree on this policy, and no, you might not find it in the ever popular Guide to Acarthia, but the former magistrate made this ruling, and people have been abiding by it since. Ask the current Royal High Lord Magistrate and I am willing to bet you a platinum piece he says the same thing. Go ask Fame & Fortune members or Pride and Glory and they will agree with us as well. We've fought side by side and never had a quarrel with either team about it. I don't know why it's such a big deal to you all now all of a sudden. If you're worried about looters, catch them and bring them up on charges. Simple. You don't need a noble edict. Just be civil to one another about loot rights and there won't be any problems.
The town killed the monsters so if someone from Mud and Blood in Warchester claimed a share of the loot then that would in fact be stealing.
****No argument there... If we were in Warchester, why on Fortannis would we claim a share of the loot in New Acarthia??? That makes no sense.
".... claim that only those that deal a killing blow deserve a share is selfish."
If you helped in taking it down, with even a stone bolt, you are entitled. It doesn't have to be an actual killing blow. I never claimed such. What's more, does the person in the back who did nothing get a share of a gold piece or a magic item that I find on something that my team and I dispatched together?
"This would be the case if someone looted my kill and did not give it to the master looter or me. This is the "unreported looting" that Sir Egil has spoken about. Larceny, more commonly called "Stealing" is also clearly discouraged under penalty of law by the Baronial Guideline promulgated here."
****And again, we are in agreement. Not sure why you brought up the most obvious laws that don't apply at all to what I'm saying. Both of those laws speak to taking OTHER people's property and possessions. Don't search other people's kills. Period.
"All law comes from his Royal Majesty. His Royal Majesty cannot be in all places at all times and so a system of feudal subservience was created to enact his will on the land. The most direct manifestation of that will is through Dukes and Duchesses. In our region of Acarthia, her Grace, Duchess Tiberion is charged with providing order and justice through the creation and administration of law in this area. Furthermore, Barons and Baronesses such as their Excellencies of Bayenna, Rivervale, Tiatar, and Warchester have the power to make and clarify laws. Finally, Knights also have the power to make and clarify laws as does the local Magistrate."
****The local magistrate cannot make a law. The knights can enforce the law, but even on their estates have to follow the laws within the barony and not make up their own. The baron can enforce the law, but can only make new laws within his/her barony, be they not contrary to the laws of the land. The duke or duchess can also enforce the law and make new laws across the duchy, be they not contrary to the laws of the land. The king, well... they're his laws and it was his magistrate that clarified looting rights among the adventuring class many years ago.
I might have had to pay a fine or three for contempt in the past, yet I have the utmost respect for the nobles as most of them truly and honorably serve the people and the land. You are right... the Duchess is responsible for the laws in the entire ducal fiefs. Why don't you ask her what she thinks about treasure distribution? I bet it sounds a lot like Sir Egil's opinion.
"To suggest that a Baron or Baroness does not have the power to issue an order regarding looting rights is arguably Contempt and punishable by law."
Is it? Even on lands they don't own? Perhaps they are the ones in contempt.... What about when it's already the king's word and a noble order of that magnitude is contrary to the laws of the land?
Looting has nothing to do with ordering field commands.... your war chief cannot undo that. Promise.
"Suggesting that guidelines set forth by a noble of Acarthia is "laughable" undermines the law of the land. Mockery of a Noble Title is a crime."
****I am not mocking the title, just the suggestion of being forced to turn over my rightfully looted spoils of war. If I owe another 5 gold for this, I will promptly pay upon my next arrival.
Forgive my lack of manners and my tone, Graham.... this topic , as I have mentioned before, I have seen in several incarnations and will not see it come to pass in my lifetime. Perhaps you have never seen what power can do to some of the nobility as I have. It begins with taking what the commoner has rightuflly earned. I will not stand by and watch that happen ever again.
Why would I carry around a copy of former magistrate Blasdel's ruling? Go look it up if you're such a book worm.
Perhaps you need to get out of your Law books and onto a battlefield. It is well known practice throughout the lands that what you kill, you keep. Many teams agree on this policy, and no, you might not find it in the ever popular Guide to Acarthia, but the former magistrate made this ruling, and people have been abiding by it since. Ask the current Royal High Lord Magistrate and I am willing to bet you a platinum piece he says the same thing. Go ask Fame & Fortune members or Pride and Glory and they will agree with us as well. We've fought side by side and never had a quarrel with either team about it. I don't know why it's such a big deal to you all now all of a sudden. If you're worried about looters, catch them and bring them up on charges. Simple. You don't need a noble edict. Just be civil to one another about loot rights and there won't be any problems.
The town killed the monsters so if someone from Mud and Blood in Warchester claimed a share of the loot then that would in fact be stealing.
****No argument there... If we were in Warchester, why on Fortannis would we claim a share of the loot in New Acarthia??? That makes no sense.
".... claim that only those that deal a killing blow deserve a share is selfish."
If you helped in taking it down, with even a stone bolt, you are entitled. It doesn't have to be an actual killing blow. I never claimed such. What's more, does the person in the back who did nothing get a share of a gold piece or a magic item that I find on something that my team and I dispatched together?
"This would be the case if someone looted my kill and did not give it to the master looter or me. This is the "unreported looting" that Sir Egil has spoken about. Larceny, more commonly called "Stealing" is also clearly discouraged under penalty of law by the Baronial Guideline promulgated here."
****And again, we are in agreement. Not sure why you brought up the most obvious laws that don't apply at all to what I'm saying. Both of those laws speak to taking OTHER people's property and possessions. Don't search other people's kills. Period.
"All law comes from his Royal Majesty. His Royal Majesty cannot be in all places at all times and so a system of feudal subservience was created to enact his will on the land. The most direct manifestation of that will is through Dukes and Duchesses. In our region of Acarthia, her Grace, Duchess Tiberion is charged with providing order and justice through the creation and administration of law in this area. Furthermore, Barons and Baronesses such as their Excellencies of Bayenna, Rivervale, Tiatar, and Warchester have the power to make and clarify laws. Finally, Knights also have the power to make and clarify laws as does the local Magistrate."
****The local magistrate cannot make a law. The knights can enforce the law, but even on their estates have to follow the laws within the barony and not make up their own. The baron can enforce the law, but can only make new laws within his/her barony, be they not contrary to the laws of the land. The duke or duchess can also enforce the law and make new laws across the duchy, be they not contrary to the laws of the land. The king, well... they're his laws and it was his magistrate that clarified looting rights among the adventuring class many years ago.
I might have had to pay a fine or three for contempt in the past, yet I have the utmost respect for the nobles as most of them truly and honorably serve the people and the land. You are right... the Duchess is responsible for the laws in the entire ducal fiefs. Why don't you ask her what she thinks about treasure distribution? I bet it sounds a lot like Sir Egil's opinion.
"To suggest that a Baron or Baroness does not have the power to issue an order regarding looting rights is arguably Contempt and punishable by law."
Is it? Even on lands they don't own? Perhaps they are the ones in contempt.... What about when it's already the king's word and a noble order of that magnitude is contrary to the laws of the land?
Looting has nothing to do with ordering field commands.... your war chief cannot undo that. Promise.
"Suggesting that guidelines set forth by a noble of Acarthia is "laughable" undermines the law of the land. Mockery of a Noble Title is a crime."
****I am not mocking the title, just the suggestion of being forced to turn over my rightfully looted spoils of war. If I owe another 5 gold for this, I will promptly pay upon my next arrival.
Forgive my lack of manners and my tone, Graham.... this topic , as I have mentioned before, I have seen in several incarnations and will not see it come to pass in my lifetime. Perhaps you have never seen what power can do to some of the nobility as I have. It begins with taking what the commoner has rightuflly earned. I will not stand by and watch that happen ever again.
Excellent! I'm glad that we could agree on the guidelines promulgated by their excellencies. You have clarified your position wonderfully.
Your Words:
"If you helped in taking it down, with even a stone bolt, you are entitled. It doesn't have to be an actual killing blow. I never claimed such. What's more, does the person in the back who did nothing get a share of a gold piece or a magic item that I find on something that my team and I dispatched together?"
Fighters that protected the caster that threw the Stone Bolt from harm, healers that kept them fighting fit or the monster disarmed, blacksmiths that refit them, and even the "sweeper" that collects the loot and allows everyone to continue fighting all helped in taking it down based on my battle experience the six years of fighting in the War of a Thousand Skirmshes. Therefore, per your clarification, those that deprive any of these people in the town of their share of the loot are stealing from the others. This is true for all the monsters on the battlefield in a town-wide battle situation. The Baronial Guidelines simply clarify and organize the splitting that should be happening under the laws and cultural norms you have already explained. The Baronial Guidelines are very clear from the words "Each Group that Contributed Positively" means that individuals that actually contributed nothing to the battle will not receive loot. I expect the spirit Thou Shalt Be Generous and Thou Shalt Give Freely to Everyone will reign in those determinations, for who better to judge who assisted vitally in the combat than the Warchief/Warchieftess.
-Graham Wolsey, Soldier of the War of 1,000 Skirmishes and "Book Worm"
Your Words:
"If you helped in taking it down, with even a stone bolt, you are entitled. It doesn't have to be an actual killing blow. I never claimed such. What's more, does the person in the back who did nothing get a share of a gold piece or a magic item that I find on something that my team and I dispatched together?"
Fighters that protected the caster that threw the Stone Bolt from harm, healers that kept them fighting fit or the monster disarmed, blacksmiths that refit them, and even the "sweeper" that collects the loot and allows everyone to continue fighting all helped in taking it down based on my battle experience the six years of fighting in the War of a Thousand Skirmshes. Therefore, per your clarification, those that deprive any of these people in the town of their share of the loot are stealing from the others. This is true for all the monsters on the battlefield in a town-wide battle situation. The Baronial Guidelines simply clarify and organize the splitting that should be happening under the laws and cultural norms you have already explained. The Baronial Guidelines are very clear from the words "Each Group that Contributed Positively" means that individuals that actually contributed nothing to the battle will not receive loot. I expect the spirit Thou Shalt Be Generous and Thou Shalt Give Freely to Everyone will reign in those determinations, for who better to judge who assisted vitally in the combat than the Warchief/Warchieftess.
-Graham Wolsey, Soldier of the War of 1,000 Skirmishes and "Book Worm"
PirateFox
Scholar
My my my this has turned into quite the argument over something that wasn't really an issue in the first place. My dear people, if ALL FOUR barons have signed off on this as indicated by the original missive, then who are we to object? I'm looking at you Rassiq, despite you having great points all around. Unless the duchess herself objects, we may have no choice to obey the will of all four barons acting in unison. Now, if any of those four barons had not signed off on this, the whole thing would be a far bigger mess, but that's just me rambling with theories. I'll be sure to ask the baron of Bayenna what brought this about in our next chat. Though honestly, I'm surprised Baron Warchester had time to add his authority to this given what's happening over there, but politics were never something I understood.
Banks
Newbie
As one of the contributors to the development of these guidelines, I would be reticent not to offer my perspective.
With regards to the heretofore unseen Archmage's arguments, for the purposes of a town wide initiativte, which is described in the document which Baroness Elavir has kindly supplied, the town as a whole is being considered one group for the purposes of the distribution of loot. Thus, the "Sweepers", in this case, the master looter(s), function as agents of the group, and the division of loot between the appointed representatives once the initiative is complete allows participants to be compensated justly.
Beyond this, this decree is intended to foster a spirit of cooperation and trust among the townsfolk and the baronies, rather than strife, as when these guidelines are adhered to, it eliminates mistrust of the other participants in the initiative, and everyone is able to remain focused on their appointed duties.
-Banks
With regards to the heretofore unseen Archmage's arguments, for the purposes of a town wide initiativte, which is described in the document which Baroness Elavir has kindly supplied, the town as a whole is being considered one group for the purposes of the distribution of loot. Thus, the "Sweepers", in this case, the master looter(s), function as agents of the group, and the division of loot between the appointed representatives once the initiative is complete allows participants to be compensated justly.
Beyond this, this decree is intended to foster a spirit of cooperation and trust among the townsfolk and the baronies, rather than strife, as when these guidelines are adhered to, it eliminates mistrust of the other participants in the initiative, and everyone is able to remain focused on their appointed duties.
-Banks
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