[.11] Retribution question

Discussion in '{Archived} Alliance Rules 2.0 Playtesting' started by Draven, Dec 30, 2018.

  1. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    1) Can Retribution be activated even when you can’t use the Guard you’re consuming? Example: I am Confined and hit with an Eviscerate. Can I Bane it using an Evade? Note that magic item activation does not normally require that I have Game Abilities.

    2) Can Retribution be fueled by Mettle, and if so, does it still use 20 Body? Note that Mettle is not actually being activated.
     
  2. Tantarus

    Tantarus Squire

    I cant imagine the intent with mettle/retribution is you dont take damage. I always have taking the damage during playtests while doing this.
     
  3. Azath

    Azath Newbie Oregon Staff

    1>
    Emphasis added. In that situation evade is not an applicable guard. It's like spell parry. If you're not wielding a weapon in a legal fashion, you implicitly can't do it.

    2> Mettle is explicitly listed as a smart guard on page 40 of the .11 packet, so RAW yes, retribution can trigger off of it. I can't word of ARC or even word of marshal this, but I am incredulous that the intent is that Mettle>Retribution means you don't take the 20 body. That sounds incredibly cheesy.
     
    MaxIrons likes this.
  4. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    Thanks for clarifying the applicable qualifier; I missed that.

    As for #2, I agree, but Retribution is the only effect of its type in the game, in that it converts a guard to a return. Consider:

    1) John is a Fighter with Parry. His friend gets hit with an Eviscerate. His Parry is applicable because his friend is within weapon length; can he Bane it?

    2) If Mettle must consume 20 Body to be applicable, then sure, you should have to pay 20 Body. But if the only thing that needs to be applicable is the effects it stops, then no, the body payment is irrelevant.

    I feel like #2 will mean that #1 is legal.
     
  5. MaxIrons

    MaxIrons Squire Seattle Staff Oregon Staff Marshal

    So this is my interpretation of Retribution: Mettle, with RAW. I leave intent aside for the moment.

    Premesis
    P1: "The character may not use this skill if they do not currently have at least 20 Body Points, [...]"
    P2: "[...] nor may they use othe skills, ritual or abilities to reduce or negate the damage."
    P3: "When struck by [...] the character may call "Mettle" as a defense and expend 20 Body Points. This immediately negates the effect."
    P4: "This ritual allows the user to, once per Logistics period, use a Return instead of a Guard. The Guard used to trigger the Retribution ritual is expended along with the Retribution, and may come from any applicable skill, Ritual, or other effect. When this Ritual is used, the verbal will be “Bane”."

    Theses
    T1: Per P1: If you don't have 20 Body to expend, Mettle is not an applicable defense.
    T2: Per P2: The expenditure of the 20 Body Points cannot be reduced by anything, including the use of the Retribution ritual.
    T3: Per P3: Expending the 20 Body Points is required for Mettle to be an applicable defense. It is the expending of 20 Body Points alongside the call of the defense itself that negates the effect. (Guard).
    T4: Per P3: Calling "Mettle" is required for Mettle to be an applicable defense.
    T5: Per P4: When Retribution is used the verbal is "Bane" but it does not state to use this instead of the verbal of the Guard.

    Conclusions
    C1: Therefore, when using Mettle to trigger a Retribution, you must have the 20 Body available, and expend the 20 Body Points, or else the Mettle was not an applicable defense.
    C2: By RAW the proper call for this would be "Mettle, Bane". (I realize this may not be RAI, but it's the conclusion I have to come to from RAW)

    Extrapolation
    E1: By RAW the proper call in the general would be "(Guard Defense), Bane".
    E2: Yes, you could Parry then Bane an Eviscerate. I base this on the idea that a logical and legal chain would be Intercept -> Weapon Shield -> Retribution and what is a Parry but Intercept + Guard in one package?
    E3: In the Intercept case the call would be "Intercept, Weapon Shield, Bane".

    @__@

    I just spent an hour chunking through the logic here. What am I dong with my life?
     
    Azath likes this.
  6. Durnic

    Durnic Squire Owner Oregon Staff Marshal

    I still love you, buddy.
     
  7. Tantarus

    Tantarus Squire

    My understanding, mostly from asking on these boards, is that you only call bane, not the defense used to trigger it. Is this not correct? Cause I have used like 40+ of these over 2 playtests that way and never had anyone make mention of it.
     
  8. MaxIrons

    MaxIrons Squire Seattle Staff Oregon Staff Marshal

    I believe that is the Rules As Intended, what I just hacked through with the logic-ax was what I get from Rules As Written, which as we all know, don't always match.
     
  9. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    “When this ritual is used, the verbal will always be “Bane”.” -current RAW

    It used to require the Guard verbal, but that’s changed in later packets.
     
  10. MaxIrons

    MaxIrons Squire Seattle Staff Oregon Staff Marshal

    Agreed, however by RAW, my step T5 shows that Retribution is not written as replacing the Guard verbal, only that "Bane" is the verbal used for the ritual. Please note, I fully understand that isn't RAI. This is intended to show the RAW so they can be tightened up and more closely match RAI.
     
  11. Tantarus

    Tantarus Squire

    I only have 24 for this weekend :/
     
  12. Cedric

    Cedric Rogue Marshal

    I agree, RAW it seems like you use (and therefore call) the defense first, which then triggers the option to use the ritual which would have the verbal of "bane". Maybe something that can be clarified on the scroll?
     
  13. Tantarus

    Tantarus Squire

    Honestly I would not be sad to just see the ritual go away, along with all bounce effects.
     
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  14. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    I think we’re gonna have to disagree on what the RAW is, I guess.
     

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