Scaling by the Numbers

[Tyson]

Lots of talk out there about 'bloat' - damage, body, etc. - particularly about how it changes the high level game.

So, maybe we should talk about scaling - what scales well, what doesn't. Here's a few talking points to get started:

Body - currently fighters gain 1/5 build, on down to 1/15 build for scholars. Is that gap too large or too small? Should the rate be lowered (or raised) across the board?

Weapon Damage - scales by build spent on weapon profs/backstabs. Do these cost too little? Too much? Thoughts on 1.5 damage per prof with 2-handers? It certainly makes the base damage bonus scale, but does it create too much in higher levels?

Armor - currently, it does not scale unless you buy/make a better rep (and get a bigger tag) or obtain a high enough Arcane Armor. Should this scale with level? If so, automatically like body, or only by spending build (for actual armor points, not the ability to use a bigger tag)? Arguably armor is more valuable in lower levels (it could be 5 times your body points) and becomes less valuable as you go on (to where armor is a third of your body total.) If armor scales up, should the body rate scale slower?

Racial abilities - some can be bought multiple times, others only once. Should some of these one-time purchases be available once per X levels (say 10)? Examples of this: Resist Magic, Racial Prof, Racial Slay. Static body modifiers - should these scale as well? Instead of +2 body to start, you gain body at -1 build per body. Instead of -1 body, should you gain body at +1 buid per body point? Half build / double build costs for 1-time skills - should these scale in some way, perhaps costing 1 build per X levels to maintain the skill, or reduce in cost across level advancement, to the ultimate point of becoming "free"? Should race matter more in the long term?

Spells - The numbers don't go up, but do they scale adequately by giving casters more spells per day?

Wands, Slays, Assasinates - all scale in two dimensions; you get more uses per day as you buy additional spells or skills, and the damage per use increases as well. Is this a model that should be applied elsewhere (like healing/damage spells)?

Is any of this making sense?

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Ah, numbers, dear to my heart. Body scales very fast for fighters, as you noted. Armor doesn't scale at all. Solution: Make both body and armor build bought. Body should probably still increase automatically, but a good deal more slowly. Encouraging people - especially fighters - to put some build into body and not more damage is probably good for the game, since it addresses that scaling a little as well. If both body and armor come from spending build, and armor holds several advantages, that may encourage more armor use, also currently a topic.

I actually really like prof and a half for two handers, since it provides some benefit for not going the sword and board route. It means that the ratio stays consistant from first level to whenever, and that's cool. It also gives extra encouragement to various elf types to spend that build for archery, since it provides not just range but extra damage as well.

 

[Shhh I'm not here]

I think both that the rate at which Body is gained for Fighters is too fast and that the gap between Fighter and Scholar classes is too large. I would simply doube the Body/Build ratio for fighters to 1/10, 1.5x for the hybrids so they become 1/12, and leave Scholars at 15. This make it a much smaller gap, but if you ask me the difference between them shouldn't so much be Body, it should be Armor. And to that effect, I agree with Dan, add a build bought skill to increase armor. However, I do not think we skills to buy both Armor AND Body. I think it's redundant, and as Armor can actually stop carrier attacks, that skill will be far more favored. A number of suggestions have been made for for new armor skills, see appropriate thread.

As for weapon profs and the big hitter skills. I think they're costs are fine for a starting point, I just think they should increase the more of them you get. And I think I remember it used to work that way a bit, where once you had I think 4 profs the cost went up for the next 4. That kind of cost scaling makes a lot of sense to me and I'm not sure why we did away with it. But the better you are at something, the harder it is to actually keep getting better. A sliding cost of weapon skills would leave the low-mid game where it is, which I think we all like, but curb the damage bloat into the late game.

 

[Lurin]

I disagree, especially since we don't currently have any full heal abilities (except resurrecting) that extra body is not a huge impact in your general event. Armor can be refit, so if you up the limit by 5, that might end up being 200 extra points over an event (40 refits) especially in younger chapters like SoMN (A wave battle with two Master Blacksmiths churning out refits is an amazing site to behold) But body only counts once during an event, for your initial points, after that it's all about the healing spells/potions etc. This means that someone with 80 body, while tough, doesn't really bloat the numbers as once they fall down once (maybe to a death?) they are no different then someone with 31 points really.