Shields vs. Staffs for Blocking

M

Mendacity

Newbie
Hey all, for those who don't know my, my name is Tim, and I'll be playing in the Northeast (NH and CT mostly) this summer starting in June. I played some last year, but plan to really step it up this year.
I've been thinking about playing a Celestial Battle Magic Templar and fighting with a short sword and a staff (for blocking). So, I wanted to start a discussion of the relative merits of using a shield versus a staff as an off-hand blocking weapon. From what I can tell, a shield sounds more useful, but the staff/sword combo would be more unique and perhaps fit a character concept better.
Here are some of my musings about the issue:
Pros:
- You can fight with a staff is your sword is shattered.
- A staff could cover the legs better - 6 feet of coverage vs. 3 feet. However, it would be pretty easily knocked aside since it would be hit so far from the hand. Unless of course the staff wielder held it out from their body and then jammed it into the ground every time someone tried to knock it aside.
- A staff costs less.
- One could eventually do those high level spells to make your staff badass (badstaff?).
Cons:
- You can't really block arrows with a staff, and bows will be much more prevalent with the new rules.
- A shield covers everything but the legs way better than a staff.

Discuss.
 
Its gonna depend on what your doing really. If you're looking to be a kinda skirmisher staff may be better in many ways as it won't catch packets so bad and could hep defend really well in a pinch. if your gonna be on the front lines mostly then you want a shield it'll stop weapon blows alot better.

Ithink conceptually it sounds neat for a c-templar personally and that should definately weigh heavily as well well your opinion on the cool facter actually yea anyway.

Try out the staff/short sword first thougha nd make sure you can manage it as it might just be too much going on :)
 
Staff short sword is not allowed. You may block one handed with the sword, but you may not wield a second weapon in your other hand.
 
Staff is a two handed weapon. (see page 66 refer to the list of skills yo gain by buying 2 handed weapon master. Staff is listed there. It is a 2 handed weapon that has the exception that you may BLOCK one handed with it.)

The two weapons description states:

this skill allows the character to hold and use two weapons in combat, one in each hand. Neither weapon can be a two handed weapon, and one of the weapons can be no longer that 32"

Interesting that ArC ruled this way.
 
Celebolwa said:
Staff is a two handed weapon. (see page 66 refer to the list of skills yo gain by buying 2 handed weapon master. Staff is listed there. It is a 2 handed weapon that has the exception that you may BLOCK one handed with it.)

The two weapons description states:

this skill allows the character to hold and use two weapons in combat, one in each hand. Neither weapon can be a two handed weapon, and one of the weapons can be no longer that 32"

Interesting that ArC ruled this way.
Click to expand...

Well bow is a two handed weapon, but you can use it in conjuction with two weapons.
 
I think its to make it consistant with bows mostly. I actually never really looked into it but the discussion was saying that it required one to be less than 32" and then it got kicked up to ARC

I think its kinda cool for a war wizard kinda character
 
so what is the reason I cant use polearm (I know you can't block one handed, but the reason that happened was so that Mages could use a mages staff and still cast, I mean it was done to make staff special not allow it to become yet another loop hole for even bigger blocking things.) and short sword (Not actually advocating this, I am just saying.)

Also Bow is technically a 2 handed weapon but is not something you get with the 2 handed master so in just as many ways it is also technically NOT a 2 handed weapon. It (the bow) I feel is a far different situation because of the nature of the weapon, and a very unique situation at that.

I am a caster with Staff as a skill, trust me I feel this will aid me, I just still think it is cheesy, and I feel that at this point the description of several skills should be rewritten as to no be confusing.

Including phrases like may not be a 2 handed weapon (and leaving out an important thing like -oh yeah except staff and technically bow) is a little confusing.
 
I don't see staff being so much better than 1 handed spear that its actually a benifit other than stylistically. With as many big changes as went through in the book its not surprising that not every contigency got checked really they did a pretty good job of getting out a pretty consistent ruleset and have been quick to clarify things on the boards.

On topic, Give it a try and let us know how it works lotsa debate as to whether its worth doing or not has cropped up but as its been illegal till recently its all been theoretical.
 
I dont think it is a powerful enough fighting style (staff short sword) to be considered cheesy, especially with an example of it's use in a popular Book/movie series (LoTr).

It is stated in the rulebook that Bow/short sword is allowed, and I think the reason staff isnt mentioned also is that it just wasnt thought of untill after printing (im guessing).

I dont have a problem with it, still have to buy florentine and two weps any way so its not exactly a cheap alternative to shield/sword (and you get a long sword with that).
 
bottom line is that it is legal.

Personally I think its hot for anyone who uses Celestial magic and weapon skills. Honestly I plan to fight primarily Bow/Short Sword but once I get enough formal and finish my 4 column I might pick up staff for the 4 build just to try out OotA for a weekend with this style. :)

Oh, and just one thing as far as the list is concerned Staff doesn't actually cost less. Because if you buy Shield you automatically have the ability to use that with another weapon. Where if you buy Staff you also have to buy Florentine and Two Weapon in addition to 1h Edge to use a short sword.

Another benefit to this style is once you get 2 or 3 profs and perhaps you can't damage something because it has a threshold you can drop down to two handing the staff, get another point or two of damage and maybe get over its threshold.

Go for it Tibs!
 
Shield pro: scrolls. You can tape celestial battle scrolls to the back of your shield and cast off of them in the middle of a fight (usually done either at the beginning or in between opponents or even just a brief lull in the battle) and is great for re-casting protectives or if you need a quick binding spell to get you out of a fight you're physically over matched in.

Bear in mind, this is advice from someone playing a C-templar who has occasionally used a shield in the past but dropped the skill with the rewrite cause I hate it personally. I'll be fighting two-stick as a C-templar and may at some point pick up staff and try it once I get to where I could do the cool staff things (or if I pick up an enchanted staff at some point heheh) but I do concede that battle casting off the back of a shield is effective.

I'd recommend building a staff and getting someone to spar with you and try it out. Not just for like five minutes either, get like two or three different people and give it a good work out with different styles of things attacking you and see how hard it is to manage or if you really dig it and wanna take it up and get good at it through playing it. I'd also recommend against making a max length staff for this, unless you really do plan to mostly staff fight and occasionally whip out the shortie with it. If it's gonna be primarily a blocking staff I'd go min length or close to it.
 
I'm a little confused as to why I'd have to buy both Florentine and Two Weapons. Seeing as all I want is the benefit from Two Weapons - that of wielding two weapons one not longer than 32" - and it doesn't say it requires Florentine as a prerequisite, why would I buy it? Is it written somewhere that it is a prereq and I'd have to "sell it back"?
 
Actually, it does. If you look in the chart which lists the skills and the build costs, on the far right in the Prerequisite column it says Florentine. I checked both the pdf version and the published copy just to be sure it hadn't gotten deleted before I posted it, though. That could have slipped through.
 
Anytime! Also another possibility to consider:

Bow: Depending on your race and/or how many profs you intend to pick up as a C-templar, might be worth considering. If you are going to get your profs first and then the bulk of your spells, this gives you a ranged damage option after you run through your spells, and profs count 1.5x for bows, so if you are gonna get 4 profs, you're shooting 9's. I always found it annoying to carry two types of packets, but you can leave the bow in your cabin until you're out of offensive spells and then go swap out for it and keep chucking that way. Plus, if you are an elf, you get it pretty cheap relatively speaking. If you're going mostly spells first then it might not be as practical or necessary.

I'd also recommend reading the section on "fluid class" that is new to this edition. Basically, if at any time your skills become more cost effective under a new class, you can automatically change to that class. So, if you are going to get your fighting skillset first and then work on spells, you might want to crunch build and see if you'd be better off doing it as a Fighter, and then sliding over to spellcasting and eventually become a Templar. If you're interested in doing this but not sure how it would work out, I could PM you some build examples to give you an idea of what you're looking at for character progress (since I crunched all those numbers for the skill re-do with the new rules, having been a fighter before with a couple of Celestial spells already I was like 8 build from being able to do it that way instead of with the rewrite but did a little shuffling instead and would be happy to share my notes on that).
 
It will really heavily depend on your size, too. Being 6'5" and pretty broad-shouldered, an Alliance standard shield is pretty much useless to me as a blocking device unless I build a center-grip one that can move a lot. A spear (or staff, in this case) is much more effective as it gives me an actual chance to block shots to my legs as opposed to having to always be dodging.

Plus, shields are wonderful bullseyes for casters. :D
 
Yea, considering the size thing I would be tempted to suggest going with staff in your case. You do lose a great scroll "holder" so to speak. But if your not to worried about that it shouldn't be a problem.

The other thing you might want to consider is doing this with an Adept and backstabs instead of profs if you like the quick more dash and sneak sort of game. Just because in that situation the disadvantage of only have a short sword as the primary striking weapon is less. But with a big blocking weapon dealing with a short sword isn't too bad...
 
by the way if a shield is shattered and there are scrolls attached, they are destroyed I believe as well, unless something has changed...

Just saying I love to shatter shields when attack by people with them. As an NPC that is.
 
Celebolwa said:
by the way if a shield is shattered and there are scrolls attached, they are destroyed I believe as well, unless something has changed...

Just saying I love to shatter shields when attack by people with them. As an NPC that is.
Click to expand...

That has indeed changed.

Page 123: "The target item must be named, and only the target item will be Shattered. Items that are contained within or attached will not be affected."
 
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