Spirit vs. Soul

[Fynwei]

Today at a plot meeting I was in, the discussion came up about the use of the word "Soul" in game. Some of the group thought it was fine, some didn't. What is your opinion?

To start things off, here are some of the Merriam-Webster descriptions of Spirit and Soul (to see full list, click links):
Spirit http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/spirit
- An animating or vital principle held to give life to physical organisms
- A supernatural being or essence: Such as- Holy Spirit, soul
- The immaterial intelligent or sentient part of a person

Soulhttp://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/soul
- The immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life
- The spiritual principle embodied in human beings, all rational and spiritual beings, or the universe
- A person's total self
- An active or essential part
- The moral and emotional nature of human beings
- Spiritual or moral force : fervor

 

[Wraith]

To me, they can be interchangeable at times. But our worry has always been offending the religious of ant creed (especially the boy scouts), and soul has a very specific meaning in most dogma.

 

[Lurin]

Owner - Answer
The way I look at it is, Spirit is already used multiple times in the rule book, ritual system etc. Since the two are fairly similar in their meanings I usually just stick to spirit to minimize the chance to rub people the wrong way.

Non-Owner Answer
Modules/plot lines that talk about people's Souls are uncomfortable to me personally, I'm not going to throw a fit over something like that, but I might excuse my self from a module if the plot line went to far in this direction. Christians (Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, whatever flavor) seem to be a statistically under represented group in our game, but that's no reason to use a less comfortable term. As always your mileage will vary based upon where you come from/the beliefs you hold.

 

[Deadlands of Old]

This is one of those "Hi, we're actually very Western and predominately working/middle class white" things, since the use of the word (or concept) of "spirit" has been applied in religious contexts every bit as much as the word or concept of "soul," worldwide, but most of us tend to come from family backgrounds, communities and organizations with varying degrees of embedded Judeo-Christian roots.

If we’re using the word “soul” and “spirit” interchangeably, and nobody in the player base of a given chapter is having issues with it, then I’d say just let it be. If someone is having issues with it I’d want to have a conversation with him or her about it, because it is possible that my/our/their understandings of how we’re applying are different.

Otherwise, I feel we should just try to let this go, since it has seemed over the years that the more we debate about things like this in the public forum the more individuals will find reasons to take issue with it.

 

[Mike Ventrella]

We specifically avoided using soul so as not to anger religious fundamentalist types, which makes renting camps all the more difficult. It's better if no one uses it, because we don't need someone doing a google search and reading too much about one chapter using the word and then getting mad at another chapter that doesn't -- after all, the type of person who would be insulted by this doesn't care much about logic anyway.

 

[jpariury]

I figure jazz musicians should be the ones getting angry, since they're the only ones with soul.

I suspect that "spirit" is only marginally less religious-invoking than "soul" - "Spirit of '76", "school spirit". Not to say that "soul" doesn't have its own secular uses: "soul of the city", for example.

 

[Morai]

I just want to post a friendly reminder that any time we discuss religion/religious things, things can get heated very quickly. From my experience, this is usually due to the internet not conveying tone. So if everyone could keep that in mind when replying, it'll make my life a lot easier. (I'm not calling anyone out now, just throwing out a reminder.)

And of course, if anyone does read something they're not Ok with, please don't hesitate to contact me (or really any of the mods) and we'll do whatever we can.

Thanks!

~Joe

 

[obcidian_bandit]

I prefer "Spirit" to "Soul." It's totally knee-jerk, though, but that's what we're worried about.

 

[Davion]

We specifically avoided using soul so as not to anger religious fundamentalist types, which makes renting camps all the more difficult. It's better if no one uses it, because we don't need someone doing a google search and reading too much about one chapter using the word and then getting mad at another chapter that doesn't -- after all, the type of person who would be insulted by this doesn't care much about logic anyway.

If you wanted to specifically avoid sentences or phrases that might anger religious fundamentalist types, shouldn't you avoid saying things like your last line?

 

[Mike Ventrella]

We specifically avoided using soul so as not to anger religious fundamentalist types, which makes renting camps all the more difficult. It's better if no one uses it, because we don't need someone doing a google search and reading too much about one chapter using the word and then getting mad at another chapter that doesn't -- after all, the type of person who would be insulted by this doesn't care much about logic anyway.

If you wanted to specifically avoid sentences or phrases that might anger religious fundamentalist types, shouldn't you avoid saying things like your last line?

You think they're reading this bulletin board?

 

[Dom]

We specifically avoided using soul so as not to anger religious fundamentalist types, which makes renting camps all the more difficult. It's better if no one uses it, because we don't need someone doing a google search and reading too much about one chapter using the word and then getting mad at another chapter that doesn't -- after all, the type of person who would be insulted by this doesn't care much about logic anyway.

If you wanted to specifically avoid sentences or phrases that might anger religious fundamentalist types, shouldn't you avoid saying things like your last line?

You think they're reading this bulletin board?

Of course they are. They have to scour the internet for anything they can find to get insulted by for those who aren't really insulted but in their opinion should be.

 

[Toddo]

Are you saying no people of faith play this game?

 

[Wraith]

Are you saying no people of faith play this game?

No people of faith who are likely to be rampantly offended by rpgs, I'd bet.

The greater part of people of faith, in my experience, are pretty tolerant.

 

[Mike Ventrella]

Absolutely. I know we have plenty of people of faith in our game -- and many different faiths, too.

No one should misinterpret my post. I said that the kind of fundamentalist who would be insulted by us using "soul" doesn't use logic or facts; these are the people who shout "Devil Worshippers!" at us when they drive by, hold up "God Hates Fags" signs at funerals, and deny evolution. Trying to have a meaningful discussion with them on issues of religion is useless.

Obviously, those people do not play our game, nor are they probably reading this Bulletin Board! :thumbsup:

The point, though, is that some of these people -- even the less fundamentalist among them -- own camps and can otherwise make our lives miserable. I know Ashbury has been rejected from camps because of religious reasons before, and I'm sure other chapters are the same. At the same time, some religious people have said "When I saw that there was no religion in your game and saw that you were making a sincere attempt to steer away from it, I knew you guys were OK." Some players, too (John Finnegan told me that if we had religions in the game he would never have joined).

So I say we should avoid the use of "soul" for all those reasons. The advantages of using it are outweighed by the potential disadvantages.

 

[Davion]

Also, has anyone watched the Darkon movie? The part where they're praying to their fictional god seems painfully awkward to me.

 

[Darkcrescent]

I can see worshipping a fictional god in a LARP being uncomfortable. I haven't seen Darkon and obviously deities aren't allowed in Alliance but I think there are some things that come close to it, the Dryad's First Forest being one of them depending on interpretation.

But back to Soul vs. Spirit, I think they both, as Em listed the definitions, mean the same thing. I'll agree Spirit sounds better on paper, but in game I think Soul when I see Spirits in the Earth Circle, as the term has that image in my head. I haven't seen any big issues involving the word "soul" though.

Though what context has the term soul been seen in game? I haven't seen it referred to someone in a circle or describing an object, but I have seen it in terms of a monster name and didn't think anything of it. In my opinion, it's really the context of the word that matters, not the word itself; but that's just me.

 

[Wraith]

I can see worshipping a fictional god in a LARP being uncomfortable. I haven't seen Darkon and obviously deities aren't allowed in Alliance but I think there are some things that come close to it, the Dryad's First Forest being one of them depending on interpretation.

There's a -lot- of stuff in-game that could be interpreted as religion if you look at it the right way, but that's the nature of humans. We build belief structures, and regardless of fantasy or reality, all cultures have their own.

The secret is not being overtly religious.

 

[Darkcrescent]

There's a -lot- of stuff in-game that could be interpreted as religion if you look at it the right way, but that's the nature of humans. We build belief structures, and regardless of fantasy or reality, all cultures have their own.

The secret is not being overtly religious.

Completely agree. It's all human nature to associate something with something else based on their perspective.

 

[djmeser]

We specifically avoided using soul so as not to anger religious fundamentalist types, which makes renting camps all the more difficult. It's better if no one uses it, because we don't need someone doing a google search and reading too much about one chapter using the word and then getting mad at another chapter that doesn't -- after all, the type of person who would be insulted by this doesn't care much about logic anyway.

If you wanted to specifically avoid sentences or phrases that might anger religious fundamentalist types, shouldn't you avoid saying things like your last line?

You think they're reading this bulletin board?

i cant tell you the countless times ive googled something larp oriented and some of the top results were links to this forum.