Sylvanborn and Sleep blow

How do my fellow Sylvanborn feel about using Sleep Blow?

To me it represents knocking someone out using a physical strike and not command magic, but I am curious how others feel about it.

This is coming from someone who has used a sleep scroll twice in his 2 years. Once because I had nothing left and had a bit of a anger break down (in game) after being forced to use it on something to keep people alive. The second time was trying to rescue slaves safely in the dark.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
So with the caveat I won't have access to sleep blow, I find it a bit questionable. The way I was brought up says that any use of a command effect, even for good, is wrong. I know some sylvanborn split hairs, and think its acceptable to use such things against enemies and monsters, but personally that's not how I was taught. If you can use a Break Command to end it, you shouldn't be using it. Personally I've never used an Awaken on someone else, but I could see a case where I might if they consented in advance. With all that said, when I was teaching Earth Magic to someone, I absolutely told them about the command effects. I explained my views on it. But it would have been wrong for me to deny them the free will to choose to use them or not; even as I wish they were never used. Similarly, I view non-consensual intoxicates or hallucinates as problematic but have no issue with people choosing to use them for entertainment.

(So the "I" in these statements is my character Telossi. When I started playing him 10-ish years ago, in the chapter I started him in, there was a very strong moral code among the MWE's. Its clear the alliance rules committee has a much much more lax view of how things should be played, and thinks sleep blow should not be a problem for sylvanborn in most combat situations. But I gave you the answer he'd have given you, especially if you asked him in front of his sister...)
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Remember that it is Sleep and Paralysis Blow. Durnic would also not have access to it, in a similar vein to Feldor, but would learn and use it if he did, he just would not use it as Sleep -- only as Paralysis. I can hear someone saying how if it can do a Sleep effect, why learn it? To that I say I also know all of the circles of celestial magic, including those that can be command effects, I just don't memorize them.

My character has all command effects in his spell book crossed out except Awaken and almost always has at least one Cloak Greater Command prepped.

I have used scrolled Awakens a couple of times, but otherwise I have never used a command effect in the five years that I have been playing this character and I do not intend to any time soon.
 
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Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Marshal Input: Sylvanborn are not prohibited from using Command effects. That’s not really their RP prohibition. This is up to the individual player. In fact, the race description in the ARB explicitly says that some Mystical Wood Elves might not even oppose Sleep.

So, as a player who doesn’t like to restrict the character choices of other people, I have no issue with Sylvanborn characters who use Sleep blows to conk someone out. I wouldn’t even care if they used Fear to chase them off. Berserk is getting into hairy territory since you’re definitely getting into “removing freedom” territory.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
I sort of disagree with Draven here about what the ARB says. It says MWE's might not oppose sleep when the recipient REQUESTED it, or the use of one command effect to end another command effect. Reading through the rest of section, its very clear that MWE's are extremely in to consent when it comes to free will. More or less, if the effect is removing a creatures free will, MWE's should strongly oppose it. Quoting: "Mystic Wood elves are very strong believers in freedom, and as such are opposed to slavery and anything that removes free will." So if the effect you are doing is mind affecting and you think if you asked the target normally if they would want to consent to the effect being done on them that they would say "no", it should be against the MWE roleplaying.

The rulebook clearly lays out that the MWE culture debates if this applies to enemies and monsters; and that some racist MWE's may consider other races inherently monsters; so you could legitimately play a MWE who only viewed other MWE's as people and could freely use command effects across all non-MWE targets. But it'd be an entire character concept choice, not just a "I want to use this one skill" choice.

That's what the rulebook says - I know some of the ARC have much chosen to not take this stringently since it is not a hard prohibition, or interpreted the option to be an extreme racist as a way to say that MWE's don't have a limitation. But I think that RP limitation is just as restrictive to play, even if it is a bit different.

~~~~

I mean, I think there's actually some interesting potential RP around why don't MWE's object to paralysis, bind&pin, prison, and other effects that prevent you from acting. I mean, I know what my character would say. My personal RP is a lot about mental freedom, not physical freedom. And each time a creature is mentally controlled, it is minor degradation of their free will. Even when done beneficially - which is why Awaken is so problematic. But this is a personal take, and not canon. (Also, MWE child care, in the context of free will and not imposing on it, and when does a child become considered a person and their free will should not be impinged upon gets fascinating. Is it problematic to make a kid go to bed on time, or not allow them to go outside, or make them do chores?)
 
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Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I sort of disagree with Draven here about what the ARB says. It says MWE's might not oppose sleep when the recipient REQUESTED it, or the use of one command effect to end another command effect. Reading through the rest of section, its very clear that MWE's are extremely in to consent when it comes to free will. More or less, if the effect is removing a creatures free will, MWE's should strongly oppose it. Quoting: "Mystic Wood elves are very strong believers in freedom, and as such are opposed to slavery and anything that removes free will." So if effect you are doing is mind affecting and you think if you asked the target normally if they would want to consent to the effect being done on them that they would say "no", it should be against the MWE roleplaying.

The rulebook clearly lays out that the MWE culture debates if this applies to enemies and monsters; and that some racist MWE's may consider other races inherently monsters; so you could legitimately play a MWE who only viewed other MWE's as people and could freely use command effects across all non-MWE targets. But it'd be an entire character concept choice, not just a "I want to use this one skill" choice.

That's what the rulebook says - I know some of the ARC have much chosen to not take this stringently since it is not a hard prohibition, or interpreted the option to be an extreme racist as a way to say that MWE's don't have a limitation. But I think that RP limitation is just as restrictive to play, even if it is a bit different.

~~~~

I mean, I think there's actually some interesting potential RP around why don't MWE's object to paralysis, bind&pin, prison, and other effects that prevent you from acting. I mean, I know what my character would say. My personal RP is a lot about mental freedom, not physical freedom. And each time a creature is mentally controlled, it is minor degradation of their free will. Even when done beneficially - which is why Awaken is so problematic. But this is a personal take, and not canon. (Also, MWE child care, in the context of free will and not imposing on it, and when does a child become considered a person and their free will should not be impinged upon gets fascinating. Is it problematic to make a kid go to bed on time, or not allow them to go outside, or make them do chores?)
I recommend reading this

https://alliancelarp.com/forum/threads/mystic-wood-elves-and-commands.2997/
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
Honestly, that seems pretty consistent with what I'm saying. MWE's are less concerned about the specific effect, and more concerned about consent. So Sleep isn't a problem -- sleep against a non-consenting target is. If there was a LCO fey potion that made the drinker act like a dog - a person drinking that would not be a problem, but feeding that potion to someone without them being okay would be. Interestingly, if someone put themself to sleep intentionally with a sleep effect, this would imply using an awaken on them would not be okay, but using an awaken on someone who had sleep cast on them offensively would be fine.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Do you believe, then, that all MWE’s should be pacifistic, then?

Edit: Obviously not. My point is that there’s definitely room for an individual player to decide what degree of freedom they defend, and the rules only require that the defense of freedom needs to be important. But if a MWE’s friends were being attacked by a bandit, and they responded by rendering the enemy unconscious via Sleep blow...I’d be fine with that, because freedom doesn’t necessarily mean freedom from consequences.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I've always found these discussions interesting because if you want to get really down to it, it is easy to say that shoving a sword through someone's guts and relieving them of their life is against their will and is most definitely a removal of personal freedom. :p

Yet I do it all of the time!
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I've always found these discussions interesting because if you want to get really down to it, it is easy to say that shoving a sword through someone's guts and relieving them of their life is against their will and is most definitely a removal of personal freedom. :p

Yet I do it all of the time!
Yeah, that’s pretty much my point.

There’s nothing wrong with a totally anarchist Sylvanborn who is, in fact, a pacifist because they decide that any action that debilitates another is an attack on their freedom. I just feel that the rules don’t require extremism, and that the importance lies in the justification.

And I don’t mean a character that uses loopholes as an excuse, but a legitimate philosophy.
 

Ragnarok

Scout
Marshal
While I'm not sure how I feel about sleep blow (but then again there is a difference between magically knocking somosom out and just hitting them on the back of the head) I see Mystics all the time who swear that Awaken spells are terrible because they're technically command spells. I've always thought that Awaken should be a Mystics favorite spell. My favorite example of a Mystic who perfectly followed the idea of freedom in an atypical way is one who used Dominate gasses to overwright an existing command and then ordered the target to return to normal. There are some Mystics out there who would spit blood if they saw that but I think it's a clever way of essentially throwing gas awakens. And awaken should be a Mystics favorite spell. That's just my opinion though ;)
 
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Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
And this is exactly why more Sylvanborn should go to war with each other over who is right and wrong.

:D
 

jdackow

Adept
While I'm not sure how I feel about sleep blow (but then again there is a difference between magically knocking somosom out and just hitting them on the back of the head) I see Mystics all the time who swear that Awaken spells are terrible because they're technically command spells. I've always thought that Awaken should be a Mystics favorite spell. My favorite example of a Mystic who perfectly followed the idea of freedom in an atypical way is one who used Dominate gasses to overwright an existing command and then ordered the target to return to normal. There are some Mystics out there who would spit blood if they saw that but I think it's a clever way of essentially throwing gas awakens. And awaken should be a Mystics favorite spell. That's just my opinion though ;)
I would love to be a fly on the wall when that Mystic is confronted with the 2.0 rules that commands don't override and realize they actually dominated someone for no reason. That could be a very fun in game reaction.
 

Ragnarok

Scout
Marshal
Oh it's for sure not possible in 2.0, and the Mystic in question would probably merchant all of his new charm gasses immediately.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Oh it's for sure not possible in 2.0, and the Mystic in question would probably merchant all of his new charm gasses immediately.
If you Merchant them, someone else might use them.

Durnic destroys them.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Oh it's for sure not possible in 2.0, and the Mystic in question would probably merchant all of his new charm gasses immediately.
Or they would save them for when a friend is Berserked.

If you Charm them, they still can’t attack you, but must be near you. You can use that to Break Command safely away from everyone else.

Just saying. :)
 

Zymm

Newbie
Call it whatever you want, it's hitting someone with a blunt object and knocking them tf out. Zero to do with mind-controlling magic/alchemy. Same bucket as beating them until they are bleeding to death, but without the whole dying thing.
This would be the response from my decade-plus MWE healer who, at the last National event on the east cost, ran THROUGH a pitched battle to beat down another mwe who was throwing dominates at "people" because someone said they were enslaved.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
I've always found these discussions interesting because if you want to get really down to it, it is easy to say that shoving a sword through someone's guts and relieving them of their life is against their will and is most definitely a removal of personal freedom. :p

Yet I do it all of the time!
This is part of why my MWE tends to not start fights. Now if they choose to attack, or have _knowingly_ made choices (like engaging in slavery or using dominates) that have opted them in to being a known foe, all bets are off. "I _chose_ to work with outsiders" is a completely valid reason to just kill some one. The right to have a free will is not the right to not suffer consequences for your choices.

As to the MWE using charms/dominates because of beserked/controlled friends, they better have gotten explicit consent for that in advance, and even if they did that is something that'd get some of us giving them some pretty strong side-eye.
 
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