The 0th Flaw: Why?

Gandian Ravenscroft

Gandian Ravenscroft

Virtuoso
Chicago Staff
Marshal
Is there a reason there is a 0th flaw listed on ritual scrolls? It is impossible to get that result when rolling for a flaw, given that rolling a 0 when rolling for flaws means it backlashes, correct?

Maybe I'm just missing something.
 
Some 10 siders use 0 instead of 10.
 
SkollWolfrun said:
Some 10 siders use 0 instead of 10.
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I know that, but that doesn't really answer my question. Consider the following:
ARB said:
Any result but a "0" on the second die roll indicates a flaw. A "0" on the second die roll indicates a backlash..."
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On a scroll, there are 10 flaws listed, numbered 0-9. However, since rolling a 0 means you backlash, it is impossible to get the result of the 0th flaw, whatever that flaw may be. So why is it even there? Why aren't the flaws just listed for numbers 1-9?

I mean, it's not a big issue or anything, I've always just found it peculiar and just adds to confusion for people less familiar with the ins and outs of the ritual system.
 
Gandian Ravenscroft said:
Is there a reason there is a 0th flaw listed on ritual scrolls? It is impossible to get that result when rolling for a flaw, given that rolling a 0 when rolling for flaws means it backlashes, correct?

Maybe I'm just missing something.
Click to expand...

The process of rolling is as such:
First roll, check for flaw. If flaw, proceed.
Second roll, check for backlash.
Third roll, reference chart. If no backlash, look at flaw. If backlash, look at backlash.

So the 0 is a perfectly valid number for determining random effect.
 
Gandian Ravenscroft said:
On a scroll, there are 10 flaws listed, numbered 0-9. However, since rolling a 0 means you backlash, it is impossible to get the result of the 0th flaw, whatever that flaw may be. So why is it even there? Why aren't the flaws just listed for numbers 1-9?
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Yeah, it sounds like you're omitting a roll. There are up to three rolls you can make for each ritual, as Sara listed out.

It sounds like you're doing:
  • Roll for success
  • Roll for Flaw, if 10 (or 0, whatever) then roll again on the Backlash chart instead.

It should be:
  • Roll for success (if success, stop. If fail, continue.)
  • Roll for success a second time (if success, see Flaw chart. If fail, see Backlash chart.)
  • Roll on appropriate chart.

unicorn-rainbow_zps4f553a60.jpg
 
It should be:

•Roll for success (if success, stop. If fail, continue.)
•Roll for success a second time (if success, see Flaw chart. If fail, see Backlash chart.)
•Roll on appropriate chart.
Click to expand...

I think Alexander was referring to was that on the 2nd success roll, you roll a 0, which means you fail, which means you go to the backlash chart and roll--so why is there a #0 flaw, if rolling a 0, means you go to the Backlash chart?

Or maybe now I'm turned around?
 
obsidian_bandit said:
It should be:
  • Roll for success (if success, stop. If fail, continue.)
  • Roll for success a second time (if success, see Flaw chart. If fail, see Backlash chart.)
  • Roll on appropriate chart.
Click to expand...
From what I can find, though, the rulebook never specifies a 3rd roll when you are flawing, only when you backlash:
ARB said:
Any result but a "0" on the second die roll indicates a flaw. A "0" on the second die roll indicates a backlash, which requires the ritual marshall to roll a third ten-sided die and look on the backlash table on the ritual scroll to determine the form of the backlash."
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Why does a backlash need to replace a flaw?

It sounds to me that if you backlash, you would also flaw. I don't see how, based on the rules, this is an incorrect series of events.
 
I always read the rules for ritual casting as "either/or" for backlash and flaw. Especially if the backlash included "Ritual Succeeds, <consequence>." I'd never think they'd happen in conjunction.

Could also just be a database error, where someone added the 10th backlash without noticing. This game might be known to have those.
 
Darkcrescent said:
It should be:

•Roll for success (if success, stop. If fail, continue.)
•Roll for success a second time (if success, see Flaw chart. If fail, see Backlash chart.)
•Roll on appropriate chart.
Click to expand...

I think Alexander was referring to was that on the 2nd success roll, you roll a 0, which means you fail, which means you go to the backlash chart and roll--so why is there a #0 flaw, if rolling a 0, means you go to the Backlash chart?

Or maybe now I'm turned around?
Click to expand...

When rolling to determine effect, the 0 is no longer an auto-fail. At that point it's just a random value. 0 is only auto-fail for determining success.
 
Alavatar said:
I'm going to chalk this one in the bin marked "not written by Mathematician & English master".

It could be written to remove all ambiguity. The question is: which way is correct?
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I've added it to the editing notes for the next ARB update.
 
I want to say the older database (pre new rits and pretty backgrounds) only listed 9 flaws, so this could be an artifact of that change. I'm not certain though because it's been awhile and I don't have one handy to check.
 
So, was a decision actually made?

If I have a 90% chance, roll 0, roll 0 on the a
Flaw "Caster receives a once ever Cloak v. Gift if he has a spirit," roll backlash, "All creatures inside the Circle with a spirit are affected by a Transform to Undead Corporeal," then -both- resolve, or just the backlash?
 
Draven said:
So, was a decision actually made?

If I have a 90% chance, roll 0, roll 0 on the a
Flaw "Caster receives a once ever Cloak v. Gift if he has a spirit," roll backlash, "All creatures inside the Circle with a spirit are affected by a Transform to Undead Corporeal," then -both- resolve, or just the backlash?
Click to expand...

The scenario you state here means you would roll ONLY on the backlash chart.

Caster has a 90% chance, rolls a 2. Ritual succeeds.
Caster has a 90% chance, rolls a 0, rolls a 2. Roll a third time to determine the effect of the flaw.
Caster has a 90% chance, rolls a 0, rolls a 0. Roll a third time to determine the effect of the backlash.
 
Inaryn said:
Caster has a 90% chance, rolls a 2. Ritual succeeds.
Caster has a 90% chance, rolls a 0, rolls a 2. Roll a third time to determine the effect of the flaw.
Caster has a 90% chance, rolls a 0, rolls a 0. Roll a third time to determine the effect of the backlash.
Click to expand...

This is the correct way to resolve ritual casting success or failure.

Put another way:

The first roll determines whether or not you succeed. If you do not succeed, roll again.
The second roll determines whether your failure to succeed results in a flaw or backlash. Once you have resolved flaw or backlash, roll again.
The third roll determines the specific flaw or backlash you receive. Consult the appropriate chart at this time (not sooner).

Because the third roll only resolves the specific effect of the flaw or backlash (as opposed to making any determination of success or failure), all numbers 0-9 are valid for determining which flaw or backlash you get.
 
ARB said:
Any result but a "0" on the second die roll indicates a flaw. A "0" on the second die roll indicates a backlash, which requires the ritual marshall to roll a third ten-sided die and look on the backlash table on the ritual scroll to determine the form of the backlash."
Click to expand...

So what folks are saying is there should be a line like this added to the above, since it obviously doesn't specify how it works clearly.


"Any result but a "0" on the second die roll indicates a flaw. A "0" on the second die roll indicates a backlash. If the ritual is backlashed or flawed, the ritual marshall will roll a third ten-sided die and look on the backlash or flaw table on the ritual scroll to determine the form of the backlash or flaw."
 
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